Talk:Manifest Episcopacy

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Have I answered all outstanding questions about the Episocopacies? -gm

Yeah-- so they're a lot like the Cabinet offices/positions? It makes a lot of sense that way. We need to make a handful more of these, though, as I suspect they're probably rather important and fairly common knowledge among the population. We especially should sketch out how the moral/crime-against-persons law system is handled-- surely that comes up a lot? Good news for my games is that there's probably room for the system to change a bit over 400+ years. -Mattie
Not a bad way to look at it at all. Based most directly on the College of Cardinals [1] [2], and as you say, they are as much "state officials" as they are religious leaders. Hell, probably moreso. These guys basically have an honorary parish somewhere in the Temporal Authority but mostly spend their time big-ticket items, statecraft, etc.


Wow, all these little groups means so much politics and opportunities to build a cult of personality. If shit goes bad in Wydmoor, what would it take to join the church as a neophayte? Does Germain have to take cleric levels, or could I just dump a couple points into knowledge (religion) and give a really heartfelt confession of faith? I'd be a mighty fine inquisitor! --146.127.253.45

The problem with reaching a huge level of prominence in one location is it has a transitive property. If you get a reputation for burning bridges and jumping ships... let's just say Germain Turncoat probably is not going to be collecting a huge following. absalom 20:17, 9 May 2011 (EDT)
Well, I think I still have a good chance of escaping without picking up THAT bad a reputation. I did what I could, and I always fought the good fight afterall. Sure, a detect truth might reveal a handful of dubious acts, but it also reveals that I legitimately believe that I killed less people than my reputation suggests.
I just mean habitually abandoning your causes isn't exactly loyalty inducing. Once, maybe twice, but after that . . . -gm
Its not quite the catholic church where you make a claim that you were born again, join a monestary, and then rise to prominence there because you provide a skill that they need. I was watching the Name of the Rose on an airplane and I thought about an older Germain working as a detective/internal affairs guy for Episcopacies. --146.127.253.12
Heh, there was a bit of that and I'm sure there is here, too. You might even get away with that one, but the Mother Church colors don't run. Also, Name of the Rose is good. Try reading it, lazy ass. Took me an entire summer. absalom 20:29, 9 May 2011 (EDT)
I'm sure its grand. I'm going to guess it is like reading Rushdie and it will leave me feeling confused, weighty, and vaguely satisfied. I'll wait until I'm old and have less to do with my time. --146.127.253.45
Well, to put it in perspective: writing novels is Umberto Eco's SIDE GIG. absalom 20:35, 9 May 2011 (EDT)
And, I think you could probably be a great inquisitor. But, it's worth pointing out that William of Baskerville was actually devout and a true believer. -gm

I think, so far, there are only two defined Manifest Episcopacies on the wiki: the Travelers and the Forgewelle Episcopacy.

More of these

What was the vision for how many of these there are? Did you intend a very small number, or are there a dozen or more of these?

There are many of these, but not nearly so many as (hundreds or even thousands of) regional bishropics. The closest, though still rough, analogue would be something like a Cabinet Secretary in the government (Manifest) and then local government agencies (Regional). So, all of the holy militants would be their own Manifest Episocopacys, as probably are whatever inquisitor group the church no-doubt maintains, etc. Now, they don't all share equal access or prestige, but there are a goodly number. An even rougher analogue would be the position of "Cardinal" in the Catholic Hierarchy, which deals with "broad strokes" agenda items. -gm

Perhaps there could be an Episcopacy or Warden over missionary activities? Religious history study? Study of the veil and the planes? Not sure just how interesting we could make these episcopacies, but it could help my story to have more than just the regional Hadriarchs involved in The Pinch. -Mattie

Generally speaking, the Manifest Episcopacies are interested in big ideas. They're basically the church bureaucrats and those in charge of major branches of the central church. The "Executive Branch," so there might be one dedicated to church finance, one dedicated to doctrinal purity, one dedicated to rooting out heretics, etc. Anything from a pure research point of view is going to probably be done by some university or the other, though no doubt under church auspices. -gm

Possible suggestions

I'd love to start fleshing these out, get some cool stories for their founding, etc... To encourage that, how about a strawman list? If you dislike 80% of them, maybe I'll get 2-3 important ones that I can try to work into my narrative (where I need some churchy drama). I'm doing this more to get everyone's creative juices flowing...

Sure, that'd be great! When I first put this thing together, I opted to focus on things that would directly impact the party over handwavy, informational stuff so big institutions like the Church are surprisingly sparse while. It's a lot less theoretical now, I suppose. -gm
Defense/Rosewall Episcopacy

Rosewall Episcopacy (Defense ministry? I'm thinking if there's a group like this, they're still very powerful in 950FI anyway, after Edrell Dakt used them as planners for Fourth Int?) -~~

Rosewall - 3 - church is not supposed to participate in war, so flush out later. --Msallen
As Matt points out, the church is non-martial most of the time. Paramilitary groups that exist in the church are known as Holy Militants, and are usually but not always Paladinly orders. Each Holy Militant will have its own Warden, which is where I'd focus my efforts in fleshing out the martial wing of the church. I don't think a centralized War Department is in the flavor of the place. Also, I imagine the Arch-Warden would probably consider him or her self the only person trustworthy enough to have that sort of position. -gm
So not really appropriate, definitely dropped. Any other comments? -Mattie 17:17, 12 June 2011 (EDT)
Finance Episcopacy

Almsman Episcopacy? (Started as charity side, grew to become full-on church finance/accounting/investment/treasury?)

Almsman - 2 - accounting is booring. --Msallen
Hmm. Since Exchequery and finance has a LOT to do with my game (even if that's not clear yet), I obviously thing accounting can be adventure! On the other hand, the primary economic tool of the church is its virtual monopoly on minting coins and the subsequent control over monitary health that brings. The church, though, is definately not cheap and probably does have some sort of Minster of Coins to keep the thing running. I don't know if the accounting wing would have grown out of the minting wing, or along side of it. Don't forget, the church has a physical country to operate as well as an international church, I'd think having a Minister of Finance of some sort would have been one of the earliest things STerros and Mythrian had to set up. So, I like the idea but am not in love with the backstory. -gm
Sounds great. Needs a better name and more coin-based backstory, definitely. Is there more existing backstory on coinage than I captured here? -Mattie
You mean mose's copper bits? Why, that'd be in game knowledge. Can't spoil that. -gm
Well, I meant more story about how the laws for coinage/minting happened? All that's on the Coinage topic is just that gold/silver comes from Church. Not much background on why that is, when that started, etc. Any ideas floating in your worldmastery head about how that all got started? :) -Mattie
Law/Justice Episcopacy

Universal Temperance Episcopacy (Justice dept? Manages those crimes-against-person/religion affairs?) -Mattie

Temperances - 1 - cool. --Msallen
The name sounds like some church down on Winchester, but I think the idea is sound. The church's position as arbitor of criminal offenses (theft, murder, etc) means they'd have to have some kind of central legal body. I don't think it'd be like a Supreme Court - there is NO interlocking system of appeals here - but some sort of council dedicated to maintaining adequate law codes, preventing juror corruption, etc. is a perfect example of the type of role an Arch-Warden would fill. I don't know how far down the Laws of the Church rabbit hole I'm willing to go, for all of our sanity, but setting up some sort of Judicial Wardency is a great idea. -gm
For maximum intrigue, I would suggest that the inquisitors be independent of the Judiciary. -gm
Inquisitors Episcopacy

Manifest Temperance Episcopacy (Internal affairs? Inquisitors/excommunicators? Perhaps also guardians and maintainers of Stone Warden?) -Mattie

Temperances - 1 - cool. --Msallen
Renamed, of course, but as I said above. Yes, yes, YES! What is a church without an inquisitor branch. They might also function as the Church's "eyes and ears" and do all of the intel and espionage work. Logically, those rolls could be divided and probably should. Having the inquisitors also be the spymasters also makes sense on a lot of levels, and would create a great malevolent foil within the church to obstruct and torment PC. So, that's a plus. -gm
Communication Episcopacy

Predicant Letters Episcopacy (Press, Communication, Official Writings, Propaganda?) -Mattie

Letters - 1 - neat idea. --Msallen
Hmmmm. This has a very modern feel to it - what sort of work would it do absent mass media? -gm
Ambassador Episcopacy

Stand Emissary Episcopacy (Group of ambassadors+staff, trusted emissaries, direct communication with world leaders?) -Mattie

Emissary - 2 - I'd think the stand would go one-on-one with leaders.
Now, an episcopacy dedicated to ambassadorial shit is actually a great idea! Sort of like a small, church-run UN whose job it is to arbiter disputes between states (as opposed to the judicary episcopacy which is punishing crimes committed by individals). Needs a good name. -gm
Bellwether Episcopacy

Bellwether Circle Episcopacy (Intelligence? Oracles, visionaries, intel network, spies?) -Mattie

Bellwether - 2 - too cynical. --Msallen
I really like the name "Bellwether Episcopacy." Oracles and missionaries and intel, yes. I'd, in fact, say you could have these guys and the inquisitors being the major espionage powers of the church. The Bellwether's doing "sat recon" type stuff - distant and observational - with the Inquisitors dealing with all the human assets and associated wetworks. -gm
Missionary Episcopacy

New Witness Episcopacy (missionaries, reaching out to barbarians/foreigners, growing/recommending/babysitting new regional episcopacies?) -Mattie

Witness - 1 - like. --Msallen
Yeah, something like this might be good. PRobably started out as the guy in charge of missionary activity and, once the Mainland reached supersaturation of the faith, it converted into drawing district lines, creating new episcopacies, and boring shit of that nature. Good one. New Name. -Mattie
Land management Episcopacy

Red Forest Episcopacy (church land managers?) -Mattie

Forest - 2 - ok. --Msallen
I like it. Matt Allen already has already canonized that the Forest outside of Ubrekt is basically a national forest sort of thing, we could say the church has declared several ancient forests holy and protected for whatever reason and these guys watch over them. Church Ranger corps, sort of. Oh, new name. -gm
Archivist Episcopacy

Also, I think it would be good to have an archivist/librarian episcopacy. --Msallen

It was suggested that perhaps this Church Librarian ends up being one of the WINOs Matt discusses for a 3rd tier warden? -Mattie
Next Steps
So, I think there is room for almost all all of these - or creatures loosely related to them - within the church. Everyone's job now is to brainstorm more evocative names for these things. -gm
Lesser Episcopacies?
Also, I think there is probably at least two or three "tiers" of Warden, if only unofficially. Like, there are maybe 6 or 8 REALLY POWERFUL Wardens in charge of things like finance, justice, inqusition, whatever. Then there are probably a bigger set of lesser wardens - equal in official rank, but not importance or job prestige - like the forest warden guy and the administrative distict guy. And maybe even a third tier full of WINOs (Wardens In Name Only) who are in charge of things like the Church Art Collection, the Church Library, and niche affairs like that. What do you all think? -gm
I like everything you wrote above. I started a table where we could specify "Type" to clarify traditional ones, holy militants, and these 2nd and 3rd tier guys. Comments/adjustments welcomed. -Mattie

Church Policing?

Some interesting ideas that I'd be curious about:

  • A Manifest Episcopacy over church judicial system? (i.e. the judges/tribunals for day-to-day inner church rulings, etc)
Quite possible. Jurisprudence is covered in a sketch somewhere, but essentially crimes against persons (murder, etc) are dealt with by the church and a universal across the mainland. Crimes having to do with property and ownership (civil law) is dealt with my secular authorities and may differ from location to location. Having an Episcopacy dedicated to creating and sending around jurors, investigators, and judges seems like exactly the sort of thing a Manifest Episcopacy would be for. -gm
  • A Manifest Episcopacy over internal affairs / policing? (i.e. inquisitors / church law enforcement)
I think I hinted at the existence of such above? Inquisitors and Excommunicators would also warrant their own Manifest Episcopacy. It might even be the same one for both! -gm

Or would those be committees/appointees throughout the regional areas? Would almost be cool if those were groups "outside" with their own Wardens and their agents intermixed with the regionals and reported through to the special Warden and the Arch-Warden rather than to their regional peeps. -Mattie

That's exactly right. Manifest Wardens are sort of like the suits that come down from corporate. Definitely cultural outsiders, and probably no body local is thrilled to have them around, no matter how rousing the welcome party pretended to be. -gm