Talk:Elk Rider - Revision history

Slitherrr: Slitherrr moved page Talk:Elk-Riders to Talk:Elk Rider

2016-01-31T22:44:05Z

Slitherrr moved page Talk:Elk-Riders to Talk:Elk Rider

← Older revision	Revision as of 22:44, 31 January 2016
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Feantari at 23:27, 23 February 2013

2013-02-23T23:27:15Z

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	:Overall, if this class has a problem, it's closer to the side of too powerful than not powerful enough. Amazing Ranger-like combat progression, great animal companion synergies, awesome saves, and the availability of a pretty great animal companion--this is basically a Sidhe love-song. -[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]]		:Overall, if this class has a problem, it's closer to the side of too powerful than not powerful enough. Amazing Ranger-like combat progression, great animal companion synergies, awesome saves, and the availability of a pretty great animal companion--this is basically a Sidhe love-song. -[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]]
	::: Hm. ok.		::: Hm. ok.
			Shall we convert this over to pathfinder? Granted it will be a few levels... -[[User:Feantari\|Feantari]]

	==Animal Companion Level Stacking==		==Animal Companion Level Stacking==

Slitherrr at 18:19, 26 February 2011

2011-02-26T18:19:31Z

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	:: Just spitballing, to kind of get a feel for things, I'm assuming that would include Dire versions of the animal? Like, if Al took this class up to level 5, could he go seek out a Dire Bear cub and automatically rear it? He'd be level 13-ish by that time, so a DC 27 Handle Animal check wouldn't be far out of his reach anyway (16 skill points, a four Charisma bonus from chain-casting Owl's Wisdom, and he's at 70%), and this would probably be completely kosher. I think the best, though, would be a Druid/Elk-Rider with a lynx or cerval Companion rearing a Dire Tiger :D Just gotta make sure the mother doesn't make that "Calm Animals" Will save...-[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]]		:: Just spitballing, to kind of get a feel for things, I'm assuming that would include Dire versions of the animal? Like, if Al took this class up to level 5, could he go seek out a Dire Bear cub and automatically rear it? He'd be level 13-ish by that time, so a DC 27 Handle Animal check wouldn't be far out of his reach anyway (16 skill points, a four Charisma bonus from chain-casting Owl's Wisdom, and he's at 70%), and this would probably be completely kosher. I think the best, though, would be a Druid/Elk-Rider with a lynx or cerval Companion rearing a Dire Tiger :D Just gotta make sure the mother doesn't make that "Calm Animals" Will save...-[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]]
	::: Those things just can't happen. It has to be a elk or deer. It says so right in the prereqs for the class. -gm		::: Those things just can't happen. It has to be a elk or deer. It says so right in the prereqs for the class. -gm
			:::: AH, ok, yeah I had asked about that up there near the table, because I'd missed it in the description, so thanks for pointing it out. That makes sense, of course, although if that's the case, we can probably either ditch "of similar type to Animal Companion" and leave just "herbivores" in the description, in the interest of reducing redundancy, or we can remove the herbivores classification and leave the ability to just "of similar type", the latter of which is probably more thematically appropriate (and would discount silly things like Elephants and Hippos and Dire Rabbits [I seek the Holy Grail], but leave things like Buffalo, Reindeer, Oxen, and Horses, rejected or accepted on a case-by-case basis). -[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]]

			Tangential: Dire Hippos would be the scariest non-magical creatures in existence. Forget bears, man--hippos kill more people per year than any other macroorganism on the planet. Can you imagine [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEXYw91lQuY&t=1m14s this], only your boat is a caravel and the Hippo is the size of a house?-[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]]

Detarame at 17:04, 26 February 2011

2011-02-26T17:04:20Z

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	:: Just spitballing, to kind of get a feel for things, I'm assuming that would include Dire versions of the animal? Like, if Al took this class up to level 5, could he go seek out a Dire Bear cub and automatically rear it? He'd be level 13-ish by that time, so a DC 27 Handle Animal check wouldn't be far out of his reach anyway (16 skill points, a four Charisma bonus from chain-casting Owl's Wisdom, and he's at 70%), and this would probably be completely kosher. I think the best, though, would be a Druid/Elk-Rider with a lynx or cerval Companion rearing a Dire Tiger :D Just gotta make sure the mother doesn't make that "Calm Animals" Will save...-[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]]		:: Just spitballing, to kind of get a feel for things, I'm assuming that would include Dire versions of the animal? Like, if Al took this class up to level 5, could he go seek out a Dire Bear cub and automatically rear it? He'd be level 13-ish by that time, so a DC 27 Handle Animal check wouldn't be far out of his reach anyway (16 skill points, a four Charisma bonus from chain-casting Owl's Wisdom, and he's at 70%), and this would probably be completely kosher. I think the best, though, would be a Druid/Elk-Rider with a lynx or cerval Companion rearing a Dire Tiger :D Just gotta make sure the mother doesn't make that "Calm Animals" Will save...-[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]]
			::: Those things just can't happen. It has to be a elk or deer. It says so right in the prereqs for the class. -gm

Slitherrr at 16:58, 26 February 2011

2011-02-26T16:58:39Z

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	: Type is "Species," roughly. Large Quadruped Herbivores.		: Type is "Species," roughly. Large Quadruped Herbivores.
			:: So, if a Druid with, say, a brown bear animal companion became an Elk Rider, it'd apply to Large Omnivores and Large Quadruped Herbivores? Or maybe we'd prefer somewhere on the Family level, like Ursines and Cervidae (or Ungulates)? Obviously there can be a lot of leeway there, especially when it comes to non-dangerous herbivores. -[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]]

			:: Just spitballing, to kind of get a feel for things, I'm assuming that would include Dire versions of the animal? Like, if Al took this class up to level 5, could he go seek out a Dire Bear cub and automatically rear it? He'd be level 13-ish by that time, so a DC 27 Handle Animal check wouldn't be far out of his reach anyway (16 skill points, a four Charisma bonus from chain-casting Owl's Wisdom, and he's at 70%), and this would probably be completely kosher. I think the best, though, would be a Druid/Elk-Rider with a lynx or cerval Companion rearing a Dire Tiger :D Just gotta make sure the mother doesn't make that "Calm Animals" Will save...-[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]]

Detarame at 15:19, 26 February 2011

2011-02-26T15:19:24Z

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	Aside from the Camel Archer, you're probably right that the Cavalier and the Dog Rider have a bit of a better argument. I don't see how your charge that I neglected any of the Cavalier or Camel Archer's abilities (they're all there in the table!) holds any weight, and you're probably right that the Cavalier is fine (DR 2 and +2 to attack/damage aren't laughable--it's basically a compromise between Barbarian and Fighter, but with the armor of a Fighter, and like I mention in the table, the "Full Attacks with a move action" ability is godly, even though it is worded very strangely on the class page). The Dog Rider abilities are quite fun and useful, and like I said, he didn't get the inspection the others got, because I had forgotten about him until the very end, so you're probably right that I didn't give him as much credit. I stand firmly by my assessment of the Camel Archer, though, although I am open to being convinced otherwise. -[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]]		Aside from the Camel Archer, you're probably right that the Cavalier and the Dog Rider have a bit of a better argument. I don't see how your charge that I neglected any of the Cavalier or Camel Archer's abilities (they're all there in the table!) holds any weight, and you're probably right that the Cavalier is fine (DR 2 and +2 to attack/damage aren't laughable--it's basically a compromise between Barbarian and Fighter, but with the armor of a Fighter, and like I mention in the table, the "Full Attacks with a move action" ability is godly, even though it is worded very strangely on the class page). The Dog Rider abilities are quite fun and useful, and like I said, he didn't get the inspection the others got, because I had forgotten about him until the very end, so you're probably right that I didn't give him as much credit. I stand firmly by my assessment of the Camel Archer, though, although I am open to being convinced otherwise. -[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]]


			: Type is "Species," roughly. Large Quadruped Herbivores.


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199.46.198.231: /* Animal Companion Level Stacking */

2011-02-24T19:17:17Z

Animal Companion Level Stacking

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	Hide/Move Silently would be very in line with nature stuff and stealthiness, but very strange on a mounted prestige class. Use Rope and the two Knowledges are a little general-use and can probably be left off. Profession is on basically every list, but it's really made more for base classes than prestige (and barely matters anyway). Diplomacy is used with ''wild empathy'', which both Ranger and Druid have, but the skill is only a class skill for druids (and is a little "soft" for this prestige, which is more martial). Spellcraft probably deserves to stay off for the same reason. All told, the list as it is is probably fine--arguments could be made for hide/move silent, but they just don't really fit with a mounted class. -[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]]		Hide/Move Silently would be very in line with nature stuff and stealthiness, but very strange on a mounted prestige class. Use Rope and the two Knowledges are a little general-use and can probably be left off. Profession is on basically every list, but it's really made more for base classes than prestige (and barely matters anyway). Diplomacy is used with ''wild empathy'', which both Ranger and Druid have, but the skill is only a class skill for druids (and is a little "soft" for this prestige, which is more martial). Spellcraft probably deserves to stay off for the same reason. All told, the list as it is is probably fine--arguments could be made for hide/move silent, but they just don't really fit with a mounted class. -[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]]

			I'd argue that for a mounted prestige class knowledge (geography) probably makes a good bit of sense. - Feantari

	=Comparison with other ''animal''-rider classes=		=Comparison with other ''animal''-rider classes=

Slitherrr: /* Comparison with other animal-rider classes */

2011-02-24T18:58:42Z

Comparison with other animal-rider classes

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	: I strongly disagree, and feel that you are VERY MUCH overvaluing the token increase to spell selection. I also disagree strongly with your assessment of the Dog Rider <i>vis a vis</i> the Camel Archer. There are all kinds of strong abilities for each of these three classes that don't even seem to enter your calculations at all. -gm		: I strongly disagree, and feel that you are VERY MUCH overvaluing the token increase to spell selection. I also disagree strongly with your assessment of the Dog Rider <i>vis a vis</i> the Camel Archer. There are all kinds of strong abilities for each of these three classes that don't even seem to enter your calculations at all. -gm
			:: But they're all right there in the table. I literally copied all three of the Elk Rider/Camel Archer/Cavalier tables into it--nothing is missing except the Dog Rider stuff (because I didn't even remember the Dog Rider until after the rest of the table was up). I mentioned up there that the Dog Rider probably gets it better than the Camel Archer (Battle Herding is really cool), but it is completely impossible to argue that the Camel Archer does not have strictly worse abilities than the Elk Rider, because the Elk Rider literally has all of the Camel Archer's abilities (switching out skill mastery in survival for skill mastery in animal handling), minus dromedary fear and +2 to initiative, then plus damage-increasing bonus feats, divine spellcaster levels, AND animal companion stacking (translates to up to four more HD on the mount, four more AC, two more ST/DX), AND a better bonus feat selection (ride-by attack doesn't even work with bows--charging is melee-only). Dromedary Fear is very nice, but is definitely a one-trick pony, whereas the Elk Rider's Bow feats will apply to every battle she's in. I agree that spellcaster levels aren't much, but I never said they were--they're just icing on the cake.

			Aside from the Camel Archer, you're probably right that the Cavalier and the Dog Rider have a bit of a better argument. I don't see how your charge that I neglected any of the Cavalier or Camel Archer's abilities (they're all there in the table!) holds any weight, and you're probably right that the Cavalier is fine (DR 2 and +2 to attack/damage aren't laughable--it's basically a compromise between Barbarian and Fighter, but with the armor of a Fighter, and like I mention in the table, the "Full Attacks with a move action" ability is godly, even though it is worded very strangely on the class page). The Dog Rider abilities are quite fun and useful, and like I said, he didn't get the inspection the others got, because I had forgotten about him until the very end, so you're probably right that I didn't give him as much credit. I stand firmly by my assessment of the Camel Archer, though, although I am open to being convinced otherwise. -[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]]

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96.4.63.20 at 18:02, 24 February 2011

2011-02-24T18:02:01Z

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	I forgot the Dog Rider up there, but he's basically equivalent to the Camel Archer--no bonus feats, skill mastery:ride doesn't apply just to exceptional mount, additional charge bonuses, fewer skill points, and the same save typo the Cavalier has.		I forgot the Dog Rider up there, but he's basically equivalent to the Camel Archer--no bonus feats, skill mastery:ride doesn't apply just to exceptional mount, additional charge bonuses, fewer skill points, and the same save typo the Cavalier has.

			: I strongly disagree, and feel that you are VERY MUCH overvaluing the token increase to spell selection. I also disagree strongly with your assessment of the Dog Rider <i>vis a vis</i> the Camel Archer. There are all kinds of strong abilities for each of these three classes that don't even seem to enter your calculations at all. -gm

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Slitherrr at 15:36, 24 February 2011

2011-02-24T15:36:16Z

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	tl;dr, balance-wise, these guys need work, and Elk-Rider is amazing. -[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]]		tl;dr, balance-wise, these guys need work, and Elk-Rider is amazing. -[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]]

			I forgot the Dog Rider up there, but he's basically equivalent to the Camel Archer--no bonus feats, skill mastery:ride doesn't apply just to exceptional mount, additional charge bonuses, fewer skill points, and the same save typo the Cavalier has.

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	Stuff cleared here. [[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]] 10:11, 24 February 2011 (EST)		Stuff cleared here. [[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]] 10:11, 24 February 2011 (EST)
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