Talk:Flame Disciple - Revision history

Detarame at 14:13, 26 March 2012

2012-03-26T14:13:43Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 14:13, 26 March 2012
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	'''Description:''' In Flux		'''Description:''' In Flux


	'''Prerequisites:''' the ability to cast four arcane spells with the fire descriptor, one of which must be at least 3rd-level or greater offensive Fire spell. 7 ranks of Spellcraft, 5 ranks of Knowledge(Arcana), and 3 ranks of Knowledge(The Planes). Must not have an elemental creature type (wholly or partially).


	~~'''Hit Dice: d6'''~~

	~~'''Skill Points:''' 2+INT~~

	~~'''Class Skills:''' Spot, Listen, Concentration, Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (The Planes), Spellcraft~~

	~~{\| class="wikitable" style="text-align:center"~~
	\|+
	\|-
	~~! × Level !! Natural AC Bonus !! BaB !! Fort !! Ref !! Will !! Ability~~
	\|-
	~~! 1~~
	~~\| +0 \|\| +1 \|\| +2 \|\| +0 \|\| +0 \|\| ''Soul Furnace'', ''Flame Resistance'', ''Fire Mastery''~~
	\|-
	~~! 2~~
	~~\| +1 \|\| +1 \|\| +3 \|\| +0 \|\| +0 \|\| ''Resistant Familiar'',''Inner Fire'' +1 to arcane caster level for spell progression~~
	\|-
	~~! 3~~
	~~\| +1 \|\| +2 \|\| +3 \|\| +1 \|\| +1 \|\| ''Nova Channel''~~
	\|-
	~~! 4~~
	~~\| +2 \|\| +2 \|\| +4 \|\| +1 \|\| +1 \|\| ''Elemental Familiar'', +1 to arcane caster level for spell progression~~
	\|-
	~~! 5~~
	~~\| +2 \|\| +3 \|\| +4 \|\| +1 \|\| +1 \|\| ''Lingering Flames''~~
	\|}

	~~''Fire Mastery'' - All spells cast by the Flame Disciple with the fire descriptor do additional fire damage equal to caster's Flame Disciple level.~~

	~~''Fire Resistance'' - The Flame Disciple develops flame resistance equal to five times his or her Disciple level. This does not stack with fire resistance from other sources.~~

	''Inner Fire'' - The caster's soul furnace has reached such intensity that he or she may ignite flammable materials with nothing but a touch as a standard action. If the item is in someone's possession or equipped my someone, then they are entitled to a reflex save to avoid the effect. If the item is magical, it is entitled to a save to avoid the effect. In both cases, the save is DC 10 + Flame Disciple Level + Caster Attribute Mod.
	~~{{talk\|~~
	Should this be a reflex save, or a touch attack? The latter has a bit more precedence as a "Disarm (Grabbing Items)" action, and could be modeled on those rules (with modifiers to represent the fact that the FD only has to touch the object, not grab and pull it)\|
	~~[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]] 22:36, 1 November 2010 (EDT)}}~~
	~~: Good question. Touch attack that triggers AoO might be closer to the truth, or even a sunder attack. If that doesn't make the ability too much more complex, I'd say that's a positive change. -gm~~

	~~''Resistant Familiar'' - If the caster has a familiar, it shares the caster's innate fire resistance if it is within 30 feet.~~

	''Soul Furnace (Sp)'' - For fire-based spells, the caster may sacrifice some of his or her own life-force to empower them. The caster may sacrifice up to one hit points per spell level as a free action when casting a spell, adding 1d4 fire damage for each hit point so sacrificed. This effect is limited to spell levels less than or equal to the disciple level, and may only be used on spells with the fire descriptor.
	~~{{talk\|~~
	~~Is Soul Furnace applicable to Nova?\|~~
	~~[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]] 22:36, 1 November 2010 (EDT)}}~~
	~~: No. Soul Furnace applies specifically to casting of spells. Nova is a supernatural ability fueled by spell slots, but not a spell. -gm~~

	''Elemental Familiar'' - If the caster has a familiar, that familiar gains the "Elemental (Fire)" template, Fire Immunity and Cold Vulnerability. Any natural attacks now deal +1 fire damage in addition to damage from any other sources. In addition, the familiar gains a fire breath weapon, once per day, with 15' range, dealing 1d4+1 points of damage for every point caster attribute bonus. The DC for this breath weapon is 15.

	~~Elemental Traits:~~
	~~# Darkvision out to 60 feet.~~
	~~# Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, and stunning.~~
	~~# Not subject to critical hits or flanking.~~
	# Unlike most other living creatures, an elemental does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an elemental is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don’t work on an elemental. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection, to restore it to life. (Ed Note: The soul is "burnt away" by the transformation.)
	~~# Proficient with natural weapons only, unless generally humanoid in form, in which case proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.~~
	# Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) that it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Elementals not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Elementals are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
	~~# Elementals do not eat, sleep, or breathe.~~

	''Nova Channel (Sp)'' - The caster's mastery over her inner fire has reached such levels that the caster may us it to act as a conduit directly to the Elemental Plane of Fire, sacrificing spell castings to fuel a pyrotechnic blast from within the caster's own body. As a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity, the Flame Disciple may sacrifice a spell to generate a 20' radius ball of fire, centered on (and affecting) herself. The damage dealt by this blast is equal to 1d4 + Ability Modifier for every level of the sacrificed spell. A reflex saving throw, DC equal to casting a comparable level fire spell cast by the Flame Disciple, is allowed for half damage. The caster make a fortitude save, with a bonus equal to her attribute modifier, to suffer half damage. The Flame Disciple may not sacrifice a spell of a higher spell level than she has flame disciple levels.

	''Lingering Flames (Metamagic)'' - The caster becomes so in tune with fire type spells that he or she gains the ability to increase the duration of instantaneous spells. If the caster takes a full round action to cast a fire spell, its duration may be changed from "instantaneous" to any number of rounds of the caster's choosing. For every round the spell is extended, the spell's effective level is increased by one. If Soul Furnace is used in conjunction with this ability, the increased damage must be paid for each round the caster wishes to have increased damage.

	Example: A Burning Hands (level 1) spell cast as a third level spell would burn from the casters fingertips for three rounds: The instantaneous duration, plus one round for each additional spell level. Any creature in the area of effect during the caster's turn, or entering into the area of effect on its own turn, takes the damage. (Much like Ice Storm of Fire Storm spells). Likewise, a fireball (level 3) cast as a fourth level spell would do exist for the round of casting plus one round.
	~~{{talk\|~~
	~~The Soul Furnace question applies here, as well (to wit, does this apply to nova?). Also, does the caster have to maintain the spell in any way after the initial full round of cast?\|~~
	~~[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]] 10:03, 2 November 2010 (EDT)}}~~
	: Nova has a duration of instantaneous. As hinted at above, since it us a supernatural ability instead of a spell, that means no metamagic feats, either, so the lingering flames ability also cannot be used on nova. -gm

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96.5.63.21 at 14:41, 4 November 2010

2010-11-04T14:41:18Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 14:41, 4 November 2010
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	::One thing that has just occurred to me, and that hasn't come up yet, is that the damage is heavily dependent on the caster attribute bonus, which can make things a little...crazy. The spread between +0 and +5 on the level 5 nova is 30 points, non-variable. A caster with a +5 from ability bonus, buffed with, say, Eagle's Splendor, gives an ability bonus of +7 and an average damage of 59.5 for a level 5 nova, a full 12 points higher, completely non-variable. It's something to think about. -[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]]		::One thing that has just occurred to me, and that hasn't come up yet, is that the damage is heavily dependent on the caster attribute bonus, which can make things a little...crazy. The spread between +0 and +5 on the level 5 nova is 30 points, non-variable. A caster with a +5 from ability bonus, buffed with, say, Eagle's Splendor, gives an ability bonus of +7 and an average damage of 59.5 for a level 5 nova, a full 12 points higher, completely non-variable. It's something to think about. -[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]]
	:::Of course, this could be self-balancing, with the self-damage aspect, so that might be a non-issue. -[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]]		:::Of course, this could be self-balancing, with the self-damage aspect, so that might be a non-issue. -[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]]
			:::: I actually considered a couple of other damage systems for nova. 2d4/level and 2d6/level might be better and simpler options, especially when coupled with scaled AoE, which I really like both conceptually and mechanically. -gm
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Slitherrr: /* More Numbers */

2010-11-03T14:15:05Z

More Numbers

← Older revision		Revision as of 14:15, 3 November 2010
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	::::: For that last reason, I've stopped arguing for bumping up the damage for the last couple of exchanges--the numbers are there to underscore my current objective, which is solely on making radius depend on level sacrificed. My reasoning is that a static radius makes it too attractive to run around burning low-level spells every round, and never ever have a reason to burn a high-level spell, which seems like a waste of potential. It seems like, if every single other level 5 option is better except in extreme cases, and in those cases you can get 90% of the efficacy from a nova using a spell slot one or two levels lower, thus saving your Cloud Kill or Empowered Fireball for when you escape those bonds or get out of that grapple, why include it as an option? I don't know if 5'/FD level is optimal in the light of the numbers, because it really diminishes the lower-level damage capacity and only marginally increases the higher-level damage capacity, but since these things have to come in 5' increments, I don't really know any better progression, and it serves my point, which is to spread out the use of this ability among the full spectrum of its capability, rather than limiting its usefulness to a subset of itself. -[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]]		::::: For that last reason, I've stopped arguing for bumping up the damage for the last couple of exchanges--the numbers are there to underscore my current objective, which is solely on making radius depend on level sacrificed. My reasoning is that a static radius makes it too attractive to run around burning low-level spells every round, and never ever have a reason to burn a high-level spell, which seems like a waste of potential. It seems like, if every single other level 5 option is better except in extreme cases, and in those cases you can get 90% of the efficacy from a nova using a spell slot one or two levels lower, thus saving your Cloud Kill or Empowered Fireball for when you escape those bonds or get out of that grapple, why include it as an option? I don't know if 5'/FD level is optimal in the light of the numbers, because it really diminishes the lower-level damage capacity and only marginally increases the higher-level damage capacity, but since these things have to come in 5' increments, I don't really know any better progression, and it serves my point, which is to spread out the use of this ability among the full spectrum of its capability, rather than limiting its usefulness to a subset of itself. -[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]]
	::One thing that has just occurred to me, and that hasn't come up yet, is that the damage is heavily dependent on the caster attribute bonus, which can make things a little...crazy. The spread between +0 and +5 on the level 5 nova is 30 points, non-variable. A caster with a +5 from ability bonus, buffed with, say, Eagle's Splendor, gives an ability bonus of +7 and an average damage of 59.5 for a level 5 nova, a full 12 points higher, completely non-variable. It's something to think about. -[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]]		::One thing that has just occurred to me, and that hasn't come up yet, is that the damage is heavily dependent on the caster attribute bonus, which can make things a little...crazy. The spread between +0 and +5 on the level 5 nova is 30 points, non-variable. A caster with a +5 from ability bonus, buffed with, say, Eagle's Splendor, gives an ability bonus of +7 and an average damage of 59.5 for a level 5 nova, a full 12 points higher, completely non-variable. It's something to think about. -[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]]
			:::Of course, this could be self-balancing, with the self-damage aspect, so that might be a non-issue. -[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]]
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Slitherrr: /* More Numbers */

2010-11-03T14:12:32Z

More Numbers

← Older revision		Revision as of 14:12, 3 November 2010
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	::::: I'm comparing it to what is there, and I think whether it is actually overpowered is debatable--after all, Cone of Cold (level 5) does up to 15d6 damage to a 60' cone. That's the exact same as the empowered fireball if you don't count the FD bonus (and only seven less if you do), to more than twice the area (1260 ft^2 for the fireball vs. 2830 ft^2 for the cone of cold), as a standard action rather than a full-round action, with its only disadvantage being that you don't have the ability to toss the area an ungodly distance away. Chain lightning (level 6) does up to 20d6 damage to one guy, then half that to selected AoE within a 30' radius (only up to 20 targets, but you can intentionally miss your allies, a big deal with numbers that high) at the same ridiculous range as Firebal. I think the argument that Fireball is overpowered is really a non-starter, given all the other spells that balance right along with it. The AoO bit has a bit more teeth, but like I described up there, the FD/Sorc at these levels is going to make his Concentration roll to cast defensively and thus avoid AoO (level 12 gives 15 ranks, + 4 from Combat Casting, is 100% success for level 5 spells, and that's without Con bonuses, and at a lower level than the FD/Sorc even needs to be able to cast level 5 spells) unless he's being grappled, and even then he's still got a pretty good chance. Nova DOES get a big advantage while pinned, and that is very big, and probably the biggest advantage this ability gets, period, and definitely worth sacrificing some damage to make up for it (escaping smoker tongues, anyone?).		::::: I'm comparing it to what is there, and I think whether it is actually overpowered is debatable--after all, Cone of Cold (level 5) does up to 15d6 damage to a 60' cone. That's the exact same as the empowered fireball if you don't count the FD bonus (and only seven less if you do), to more than twice the area (1260 ft^2 for the fireball vs. 2830 ft^2 for the cone of cold), as a standard action rather than a full-round action, with its only disadvantage being that you don't have the ability to toss the area an ungodly distance away. Chain lightning (level 6) does up to 20d6 damage to one guy, then half that to selected AoE within a 30' radius (only up to 20 targets, but you can intentionally miss your allies, a big deal with numbers that high) at the same ridiculous range as Firebal. I think the argument that Fireball is overpowered is really a non-starter, given all the other spells that balance right along with it. The AoO bit has a bit more teeth, but like I described up there, the FD/Sorc at these levels is going to make his Concentration roll to cast defensively and thus avoid AoO (level 12 gives 15 ranks, + 4 from Combat Casting, is 100% success for level 5 spells, and that's without Con bonuses, and at a lower level than the FD/Sorc even needs to be able to cast level 5 spells) unless he's being grappled, and even then he's still got a pretty good chance. Nova DOES get a big advantage while pinned, and that is very big, and probably the biggest advantage this ability gets, period, and definitely worth sacrificing some damage to make up for it (escaping smoker tongues, anyone?).
	::::: For that last reason, I've stopped arguing for bumping up the damage for the last couple of exchanges--the numbers are there to underscore my current objective, which is solely on making radius depend on level sacrificed. My reasoning is that a static radius makes it too attractive to run around burning low-level spells every round, and never ever have a reason to burn a high-level spell, which seems like a waste of potential. It seems like, if every single other level 5 option is better except in extreme cases, and in those cases you can get 90% of the efficacy from a nova using a spell slot one or two levels lower, thus saving your Cloud Kill or Empowered Fireball for when you escape those bonds or get out of that grapple, why include it as an option? I don't know if 5'/FD level is optimal in the light of the numbers, because it really diminishes the lower-level damage capacity and only marginally increases the higher-level damage capacity, but since these things have to come in 5' increments, I don't really know any better progression, and it serves my point, which is to spread out the use of this ability among the full spectrum of its capability, rather than limiting its usefulness to a subset of itself. -[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]]		::::: For that last reason, I've stopped arguing for bumping up the damage for the last couple of exchanges--the numbers are there to underscore my current objective, which is solely on making radius depend on level sacrificed. My reasoning is that a static radius makes it too attractive to run around burning low-level spells every round, and never ever have a reason to burn a high-level spell, which seems like a waste of potential. It seems like, if every single other level 5 option is better except in extreme cases, and in those cases you can get 90% of the efficacy from a nova using a spell slot one or two levels lower, thus saving your Cloud Kill or Empowered Fireball for when you escape those bonds or get out of that grapple, why include it as an option? I don't know if 5'/FD level is optimal in the light of the numbers, because it really diminishes the lower-level damage capacity and only marginally increases the higher-level damage capacity, but since these things have to come in 5' increments, I don't really know any better progression, and it serves my point, which is to spread out the use of this ability among the full spectrum of its capability, rather than limiting its usefulness to a subset of itself. -[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]]
			::One thing that has just occurred to me, and that hasn't come up yet, is that the damage is heavily dependent on the caster attribute bonus, which can make things a little...crazy. The spread between +0 and +5 on the level 5 nova is 30 points, non-variable. A caster with a +5 from ability bonus, buffed with, say, Eagle's Splendor, gives an ability bonus of +7 and an average damage of 59.5 for a level 5 nova, a full 12 points higher, completely non-variable. It's something to think about. -[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]]
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Slitherrr at 14:01, 3 November 2010

2010-11-03T14:01:33Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 14:01, 3 November 2010
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	::: Still using a overpowered spell as benchmark, only now jacked up. I like conceptually the larger radius for more powerful spells, it fits with the idea of it being a powerful burst of raw elemental power. But, yeah, I tend to think things like Casting Spells With No AoO is a huge add in terms of power scaling with other abilities.		::: Still using a overpowered spell as benchmark, only now jacked up. I like conceptually the larger radius for more powerful spells, it fits with the idea of it being a powerful burst of raw elemental power. But, yeah, I tend to think things like Casting Spells With No AoO is a huge add in terms of power scaling with other abilities.
	:::: Oh, yeah, and if the caster dropped that empowered fireball on himself and the required reflex save (probably at -4) would probably kill him. So, not getting killed because the save plays to your strong save is also bonus. Plus the range. And, at the end of the day, it's better to have an ability get underpowered at the top end than be overpowered at the low end. I think? Maybe not. Some WoW person probably has reams of data about that, actually. -gm		:::: Oh, yeah, and if the caster dropped that empowered fireball on himself and the required reflex save (probably at -4) would probably kill him. So, not getting killed because the save plays to your strong save is also bonus. Plus the range. And, at the end of the day, it's better to have an ability get underpowered at the top end than be overpowered at the low end. I think? Maybe not. Some WoW person probably has reams of data about that, actually. -gm
			::::: I'm comparing it to what is there, and I think whether it is actually overpowered is debatable--after all, Cone of Cold (level 5) does up to 15d6 damage to a 60' cone. That's the exact same as the empowered fireball if you don't count the FD bonus (and only seven less if you do), to more than twice the area (1260 ft^2 for the fireball vs. 2830 ft^2 for the cone of cold), as a standard action rather than a full-round action, with its only disadvantage being that you don't have the ability to toss the area an ungodly distance away. Chain lightning (level 6) does up to 20d6 damage to one guy, then half that to selected AoE within a 30' radius (only up to 20 targets, but you can intentionally miss your allies, a big deal with numbers that high) at the same ridiculous range as Firebal. I think the argument that Fireball is overpowered is really a non-starter, given all the other spells that balance right along with it. The AoO bit has a bit more teeth, but like I described up there, the FD/Sorc at these levels is going to make his Concentration roll to cast defensively and thus avoid AoO (level 12 gives 15 ranks, + 4 from Combat Casting, is 100% success for level 5 spells, and that's without Con bonuses, and at a lower level than the FD/Sorc even needs to be able to cast level 5 spells) unless he's being grappled, and even then he's still got a pretty good chance. Nova DOES get a big advantage while pinned, and that is very big, and probably the biggest advantage this ability gets, period, and definitely worth sacrificing some damage to make up for it (escaping smoker tongues, anyone?).
			::::: For that last reason, I've stopped arguing for bumping up the damage for the last couple of exchanges--the numbers are there to underscore my current objective, which is solely on making radius depend on level sacrificed. My reasoning is that a static radius makes it too attractive to run around burning low-level spells every round, and never ever have a reason to burn a high-level spell, which seems like a waste of potential. It seems like, if every single other level 5 option is better except in extreme cases, and in those cases you can get 90% of the efficacy from a nova using a spell slot one or two levels lower, thus saving your Cloud Kill or Empowered Fireball for when you escape those bonds or get out of that grapple, why include it as an option? I don't know if 5'/FD level is optimal in the light of the numbers, because it really diminishes the lower-level damage capacity and only marginally increases the higher-level damage capacity, but since these things have to come in 5' increments, I don't really know any better progression, and it serves my point, which is to spread out the use of this ability among the full spectrum of its capability, rather than limiting its usefulness to a subset of itself. -[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]]

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75.64.110.158 at 23:11, 2 November 2010

2010-11-02T23:11:53Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 23:11, 2 November 2010
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	: Well, I'd say most sorcs probably do not have a lot of metamagic feats because it takes a full round action to apply metamagic to sorc spells, and - as a casterphiliac - I find that the damage increasing feats are usually not worthwhile. An empowered fireball is like a, what, 5th level spell? Yeah, I'd rather cast cloudkill. Maximized fireball is a 6th level spell or something? I'm sure I could find something more useful with a 6th level spell slot than a 60 damage fireball that's only going to end up doing 30. -gm		: Well, I'd say most sorcs probably do not have a lot of metamagic feats because it takes a full round action to apply metamagic to sorc spells, and - as a casterphiliac - I find that the damage increasing feats are usually not worthwhile. An empowered fireball is like a, what, 5th level spell? Yeah, I'd rather cast cloudkill. Maximized fireball is a 6th level spell or something? I'm sure I could find something more useful with a 6th level spell slot than a 60 damage fireball that's only going to end up doing 30. -gm
	:: For some reason, I read the metamagic feats as having one less addition than they actually had. That being said, we can compare empowered fireball vs. 5th-level nova-- 10sorc 5FD, probably a +4 in cha (possibly +5 if he really worked it) gives 5d4 + 20, averages to 32.5 damage. Empowered fireball is either (10d6 + 5) * 1.5 = 60 average, or 15d6 + 7 = 59 damage average *because I'm not sure when the empowerment works out), giving roughly double the average damage output without self-damage at range in a larger area for the same-level spell, at the cost of not being insta-cast with no components. At that level, a DC 20 defensive casting check is going to be made almost all the time (18 ranks in concentration, so a single con bonus point would be 100% success), so AoO is basically a non-issue. Nova would only win out as a last-ditch attack when bound/grappled/etc, which could conceivably be enough utility to make up for the deficit, but it's a hard question. That said, a 25' radius instead of a 20' radius adds 36 squares of potential targets, which could very easily make up in utility what fireball gains in damage. -[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]]		:: For some reason, I read the metamagic feats as having one less addition than they actually had. That being said, we can compare empowered fireball vs. 5th-level nova-- 10sorc 5FD, probably a +4 in cha (possibly +5 if he really worked it) gives 5d4 + 20, averages to 32.5 damage. Empowered fireball is either (10d6 + 5) * 1.5 = 60 average, or 15d6 + 7 = 59 damage average *because I'm not sure when the empowerment works out), giving roughly double the average damage output without self-damage at range in a larger area for the same-level spell, at the cost of not being insta-cast with no components. At that level, a DC 20 defensive casting check is going to be made almost all the time (18 ranks in concentration, so a single con bonus point would be 100% success), so AoO is basically a non-issue. Nova would only win out as a last-ditch attack when bound/grappled/etc, which could conceivably be enough utility to make up for the deficit, but it's a hard question. That said, a 25' radius instead of a 20' radius adds 36 squares of potential targets, which could very easily make up in utility what fireball gains in damage. -[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]]
			::: Still using a overpowered spell as benchmark, only now jacked up. I like conceptually the larger radius for more powerful spells, it fits with the idea of it being a powerful burst of raw elemental power. But, yeah, I tend to think things like Casting Spells With No AoO is a huge add in terms of power scaling with other abilities.
			:::: Oh, yeah, and if the caster dropped that empowered fireball on himself and the required reflex save (probably at -4) would probably kill him. So, not getting killed because the save plays to your strong save is also bonus. Plus the range. And, at the end of the day, it's better to have an ability get underpowered at the top end than be overpowered at the low end. I think? Maybe not. Some WoW person probably has reams of data about that, actually. -gm

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Slitherrr: mmm, Hidden template needs work

2010-11-02T15:17:47Z

mmm, Hidden template needs work

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:17, 2 November 2010
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	Stuff hidden 10:32, 28 October 2010 (EDT)\|		\|-
	I'm sure Matt or Slitherrr will chime in on the numbers and rulesy stuff, they're good with that. I like the idea, overall, and think we can do some more interesting stuff with it. First off, as far as becoming half elemental, we can do that. To whit: <a href="http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Templates.pdf">Templates</a>. I'm not sure about the half-elemental in there, but other ones abound, might even have one in a dragon somewhere. Essentally you'd become an Fire Outsider instead of a Humanoid and some other fire related bonuses. I'll put some thought in and see what other kind of suggestions pop up. I think, probably, some of these might be underpowered or impractical (2 minute activation time! That's 20 rounds. The ENTIRE of last sundays game was like 15), and a couple need to be scaled back or gradated or even degradated. I like the idea of taking extra damage from cold, but I don't know that it needs to scale that much. 50% extra at third and double at 5th or something, since working in halves is kind of a mechanical normalcy.		! Stuff hidden 10:32, 28 October 2010 (EDT)
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			\|I'm sure Matt or Slitherrr will chime in on the numbers and rulesy stuff, they're good with that. I like the idea, overall, and think we can do some more interesting stuff with it. First off, as far as becoming half elemental, we can do that. To whit: <a href="http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Templates.pdf">Templates</a>. I'm not sure about the half-elemental in there, but other ones abound, might even have one in a dragon somewhere. Essentally you'd become an Fire Outsider instead of a Humanoid and some other fire related bonuses. I'll put some thought in and see what other kind of suggestions pop up. I think, probably, some of these might be underpowered or impractical (2 minute activation time! That's 20 rounds. The ENTIRE of last sundays game was like 15), and a couple need to be scaled back or gradated or even degradated. I like the idea of taking extra damage from cold, but I don't know that it needs to scale that much. 50% extra at third and double at 5th or something, since working in halves is kind of a mechanical normalcy.

	Also: If it's going to have one good save, it's will. It's a good start, should be fun to work on -gm		Also: If it's going to have one good save, it's will. It's a good start, should be fun to work on -gm
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	: As for the firestorm idea, another option would be to include a metamagic feat that allows you to learn any elemntal tag spell as a fire version of that spell. So, cone of cold becomes cone of fire, etc. This way, there are actually a couple of options for firestorms at various levels, allowing you to get one or both. Ice Storm, which also impairs movement, and Acid Raid (or some such) which just does a megafuck damage. I think this is preferable, again, because it keeps the primary engine of your damage as the spell slot.		: As for the firestorm idea, another option would be to include a metamagic feat that allows you to learn any elemntal tag spell as a fire version of that spell. So, cone of cold becomes cone of fire, etc. This way, there are actually a couple of options for firestorms at various levels, allowing you to get one or both. Ice Storm, which also impairs movement, and Acid Raid (or some such) which just does a megafuck damage. I think this is preferable, again, because it keeps the primary engine of your damage as the spell slot.
	::I think we might be combing two different ideas here that I had not intended to be related. The tl;dr on self-immolation (as I've proposed it) is a damage buff to fire-spells that costs HP. The small, caster-centered AOE is more of a result of the way the ability was conceived... which is basically that the caster becomes engulfed in raging flames, doing damage to himself and surroundings, but making his fire spells more powerful. Wildfire is more of a way to make fire contagious. When the ability is used, enemies who are on fire have a chance to set nearby enemies on fire, too. [[User:TooMuchPete\|TooMuchPete]] 11:07, 23 June 2010 (EDT)		::I think we might be combing two different ideas here that I had not intended to be related. The tl;dr on self-immolation (as I've proposed it) is a damage buff to fire-spells that costs HP. The small, caster-centered AOE is more of a result of the way the ability was conceived... which is basically that the caster becomes engulfed in raging flames, doing damage to himself and surroundings, but making his fire spells more powerful. Wildfire is more of a way to make fire contagious. When the ability is used, enemies who are on fire have a chance to set nearby enemies on fire, too. [[User:TooMuchPete\|TooMuchPete]] 11:07, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
	}}		\|}
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Slitherrr at 15:11, 2 November 2010

2010-11-02T15:11:18Z

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	-[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]]		-[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]]

	If we consider this a showcase ability for the FD, I think this may be a tad underpowered. Consider a sorc 8/FD 5 could cast a fireball (level 3 spell) and do 10d6+5 damage at a range of up to 400 ft + something crazy, or he could nova with a 15' radius with a level 4 spell and do (4d4+(cha bonus, let's say three) damage (he can't even do a level 5 spell at this level, yet). The latter is clearly a lot less, for the sacrifice of a higher-level spell slot and the ability to damage at range AND the larger radius of the fireball (15' vs 20'), although with the benefit of no components (which implies the ability to nova while bound) and no casting time (vs a standard action).		If we consider this a showcase ability for the FD, I think this may be a tad underpowered. Consider a sorc 8/FD 5 could cast a fireball (level 3 spell) and do 10d6+5 damage at a range of up to 400 ft + something crazy, or he could nova with a 15' radius with a level 4 spell and do (4d4+(cha bonus, let's say three, times four) damage (he can't even do a level 5 spell at this level, yet). The latter is clearly a lot less, for the sacrifice of a higher-level spell slot and the ability to damage at range AND the larger radius of the fireball (15' vs 20'), although with the benefit of no components (which implies the ability to nova while bound) and no casting time (vs a standard action).

	I think we could solve these problems by scaling radius with FD level (or rather, with level of spell sacrificed). -[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]]		I think we could solve these problems by scaling radius with FD level (or rather, with level of spell sacrificed). -[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]]
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	::::: Ok. For the same 5 FD/8 Sorc, but assuming +4 to caster attribute, Flaming Sphere (lvl 2 spell) is 120 damage average over a 10-round span at a range of up to 200' (2d6+5, move action, does not provoke AoO, and unresisted), vs 19 average per target from the same-level nova, but in one round, AoE, for a free action with no components, which compares favorably in the really short term, and it could conceivably do as much damage if enough enemies (6.4ish) can be crowded into that 15' radius circle (who don't resist). Burning Hands (level 1) does 7.5 avg (5d4 + 5) to 1/4 of the area of the nova, to which the nova compares very favorably (11.5 average damage to a larger area with a faster casting time). In other words, its low-level versions are very comparatively efficient, the gains of which then taper out. There aren't any other fire spells that do damage until FD5/Sorc 14 (the spell is Incendiary Cloud, though, which does a megafuckload of damage, basically an AoE version of Flaming Sphere that does twice as much damage and only allows save for half). This seems like an incentive for the FD to spam low-level spell slots for nova, and save his higher slots for empowered/maximized fireballs, which may or may not be fine, depending on how you want it to go. I'm still for making the range depend on level--given the numbers above, ranging it at, say, 5'/level sacrificed seems like it would keep the ability useful, but not as awesome for spamming, at lower levels, while slightly increasing its danger at the higher levels, making it more likely that the FD will find it worthwhile to sacrifice the slot and HP for such a cast. -[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]]		::::: Ok. For the same 5 FD/8 Sorc, but assuming +4 to caster attribute, Flaming Sphere (lvl 2 spell) is 120 damage average over a 10-round span at a range of up to 200' (2d6+5, move action, does not provoke AoO, and unresisted), vs 19 average per target from the same-level nova, but in one round, AoE, for a free action with no components, which compares favorably in the really short term, and it could conceivably do as much damage if enough enemies (6.4ish) can be crowded into that 15' radius circle (who don't resist). Burning Hands (level 1) does 7.5 avg (5d4 + 5) to 1/4 of the area of the nova, to which the nova compares very favorably (11.5 average damage to a larger area with a faster casting time). In other words, its low-level versions are very comparatively efficient, the gains of which then taper out. There aren't any other fire spells that do damage until FD5/Sorc 14 (the spell is Incendiary Cloud, though, which does a megafuckload of damage, basically an AoE version of Flaming Sphere that does twice as much damage and only allows save for half). This seems like an incentive for the FD to spam low-level spell slots for nova, and save his higher slots for empowered/maximized fireballs, which may or may not be fine, depending on how you want it to go. I'm still for making the range depend on level--given the numbers above, ranging it at, say, 5'/level sacrificed seems like it would keep the ability useful, but not as awesome for spamming, at lower levels, while slightly increasing its danger at the higher levels, making it more likely that the FD will find it worthwhile to sacrifice the slot and HP for such a cast. -[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]]
	: Well, I'd say most sorcs probably do not have a lot of metamagic feats because it takes a full round action to apply metamagic to sorc spells, and - as a casterphiliac - I find that the damage increasing feats are usually not worthwhile. An empowered fireball is like a, what, 5th level spell? Yeah, I'd rather cast cloudkill. Maximized fireball is a 6th level spell or something? I'm sure I could find something more useful with a 6th level spell slot than a 60 damage fireball that's only going to end up doing 30. -gm		: Well, I'd say most sorcs probably do not have a lot of metamagic feats because it takes a full round action to apply metamagic to sorc spells, and - as a casterphiliac - I find that the damage increasing feats are usually not worthwhile. An empowered fireball is like a, what, 5th level spell? Yeah, I'd rather cast cloudkill. Maximized fireball is a 6th level spell or something? I'm sure I could find something more useful with a 6th level spell slot than a 60 damage fireball that's only going to end up doing 30. -gm
			:: For some reason, I read the metamagic feats as having one less addition than they actually had. That being said, we can compare empowered fireball vs. 5th-level nova-- 10sorc 5FD, probably a +4 in cha (possibly +5 if he really worked it) gives 5d4 + 20, averages to 32.5 damage. Empowered fireball is either (10d6 + 5) * 1.5 = 60 average, or 15d6 + 7 = 59 damage average *because I'm not sure when the empowerment works out), giving roughly double the average damage output without self-damage at range in a larger area for the same-level spell, at the cost of not being insta-cast with no components. At that level, a DC 20 defensive casting check is going to be made almost all the time (18 ranks in concentration, so a single con bonus point would be 100% success), so AoO is basically a non-issue. Nova would only win out as a last-ditch attack when bound/grappled/etc, which could conceivably be enough utility to make up for the deficit, but it's a hard question. That said, a 25' radius instead of a 20' radius adds 36 squares of potential targets, which could very easily make up in utility what fireball gains in damage. -[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]]

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96.5.63.22 at 14:35, 2 November 2010

2010-11-02T14:35:43Z

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	Should this be a reflex save, or a touch attack? The latter has a bit more precedence as a "Disarm (Grabbing Items)" action, and could be modeled on those rules (with modifiers to represent the fact that the FD only has to touch the object, not grab and pull it)\|		Should this be a reflex save, or a touch attack? The latter has a bit more precedence as a "Disarm (Grabbing Items)" action, and could be modeled on those rules (with modifiers to represent the fact that the FD only has to touch the object, not grab and pull it)\|
	[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]] 22:36, 1 November 2010 (EDT)}}		[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]] 22:36, 1 November 2010 (EDT)}}
			: Good question. Touch attack that triggers AoO might be closer to the truth, or even a sunder attack. If that doesn't make the ability too much more complex, I'd say that's a positive change. -gm

	''Resistant Familiar'' - If the caster has a familiar, it shares the caster's innate fire resistance if it is within 30 feet.		''Resistant Familiar'' - If the caster has a familiar, it shares the caster's innate fire resistance if it is within 30 feet.
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	Is Soul Furnace applicable to Nova?\|		Is Soul Furnace applicable to Nova?\|
	[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]] 22:36, 1 November 2010 (EDT)}}		[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]] 22:36, 1 November 2010 (EDT)}}
			: No. Soul Furnace applies specifically to casting of spells. Nova is a supernatural ability fueled by spell slots, but not a spell. -gm

	''Elemental Familiar'' - If the caster has a familiar, that familiar gains the "Elemental (Fire)" template, Fire Immunity and Cold Vulnerability. Any natural attacks now deal +1 fire damage in addition to damage from any other sources. In addition, the familiar gains a fire breath weapon, once per day, with 15' range, dealing 1d4+1 points of damage for every point caster attribute bonus. The DC for this breath weapon is 15.		''Elemental Familiar'' - If the caster has a familiar, that familiar gains the "Elemental (Fire)" template, Fire Immunity and Cold Vulnerability. Any natural attacks now deal +1 fire damage in addition to damage from any other sources. In addition, the familiar gains a fire breath weapon, once per day, with 15' range, dealing 1d4+1 points of damage for every point caster attribute bonus. The DC for this breath weapon is 15.
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	The Soul Furnace question applies here, as well (to wit, does this apply to nova?). Also, does the caster have to maintain the spell in any way after the initial full round of cast?\|		The Soul Furnace question applies here, as well (to wit, does this apply to nova?). Also, does the caster have to maintain the spell in any way after the initial full round of cast?\|
	[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]] 10:03, 2 November 2010 (EDT)}}		[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]] 10:03, 2 November 2010 (EDT)}}
			: Nova has a duration of instantaneous. As hinted at above, since it us a supernatural ability instead of a spell, that means no metamagic feats, either, so the lingering flames ability also cannot be used on nova. -gm

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	I think we could solve these problems by scaling radius with FD level (or rather, with level of spell sacrificed). -[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]]		I think we could solve these problems by scaling radius with FD level (or rather, with level of spell sacrificed). -[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]]
			: I agree, I think that radius of 5' per spell level sacrificed is a good one, too. Starting to make the ability kind of rules-heavy, but I guess that's just the nature of the beast. -gm

	: Scaling the radius by FD level is not a bad idea. I'm not sure it's that underpowered considering one of the trade offs (nova damage) is mitigated by resist (15, 20, or 25 depending on level) Pete could shrug off level 1 or 2 novas with failed saves, and even lvl 3 ones with a successful one. Also: I think you're misreading the damage? It's not Lvld4 + MOD, it's (d4+MOD)/Lvl. -gm		: Scaling the radius by FD level is not a bad idea. I'm not sure it's that underpowered considering one of the trade offs (nova damage) is mitigated by resist (15, 20, or 25 depending on level) Pete could shrug off level 1 or 2 novas with failed saves, and even lvl 3 ones with a successful one. Also: I think you're misreading the damage? It's not Lvld4 + MOD, it's (d4+MOD)/Lvl. -gm
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	:::: I agree that the non-AoO nature is a big gain. I'll run the numbers on Flaming Hands and Burning Sphere and see what I get, there. I'll run it on Fire Shield, too, but that will have a huge caveat that the damage is reactive, not AoE (plus a shielding affect against cold/fire damage, to make things more complicated). Basically, the question isn't whether it should do as much damage as a fireball (because it definitely shouldn't), but whether there is a vast enough difference in the damages to justify tweaking the nova a bit despite its advantages. -[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]]		:::: I agree that the non-AoO nature is a big gain. I'll run the numbers on Flaming Hands and Burning Sphere and see what I get, there. I'll run it on Fire Shield, too, but that will have a huge caveat that the damage is reactive, not AoE (plus a shielding affect against cold/fire damage, to make things more complicated). Basically, the question isn't whether it should do as much damage as a fireball (because it definitely shouldn't), but whether there is a vast enough difference in the damages to justify tweaking the nova a bit despite its advantages. -[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]]
	::::: Ok. For the same 5 FD/8 Sorc, but assuming +4 to caster attribute, Flaming Sphere (lvl 2 spell) is 120 damage average over a 10-round span at a range of up to 200' (2d6+5, move action, does not provoke AoO, and unresisted), vs 19 average per target from the same-level nova, but in one round, AoE, for a free action with no components, which compares favorably in the really short term, and it could conceivably do as much damage if enough enemies (6.4ish) can be crowded into that 15' radius circle (who don't resist). Burning Hands (level 1) does 7.5 avg (5d4 + 5) to 1/4 of the area of the nova, to which the nova compares very favorably (11.5 average damage to a larger area with a faster casting time). In other words, its low-level versions are very comparatively efficient, the gains of which then taper out. There aren't any other fire spells that do damage until FD5/Sorc 14 (the spell is Incendiary Cloud, though, which does a megafuckload of damage, basically an AoE version of Flaming Sphere that does twice as much damage and only allows save for half). This seems like an incentive for the FD to spam low-level spell slots for nova, and save his higher slots for empowered/maximized fireballs, which may or may not be fine, depending on how you want it to go. I'm still for making the range depend on level--given the numbers above, ranging it at, say, 5'/level sacrificed seems like it would keep the ability useful, but not as awesome for spamming, at lower levels, while slightly increasing its danger at the higher levels, making it more likely that the FD will find it worthwhile to sacrifice the slot and HP for such a cast. -[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]]		::::: Ok. For the same 5 FD/8 Sorc, but assuming +4 to caster attribute, Flaming Sphere (lvl 2 spell) is 120 damage average over a 10-round span at a range of up to 200' (2d6+5, move action, does not provoke AoO, and unresisted), vs 19 average per target from the same-level nova, but in one round, AoE, for a free action with no components, which compares favorably in the really short term, and it could conceivably do as much damage if enough enemies (6.4ish) can be crowded into that 15' radius circle (who don't resist). Burning Hands (level 1) does 7.5 avg (5d4 + 5) to 1/4 of the area of the nova, to which the nova compares very favorably (11.5 average damage to a larger area with a faster casting time). In other words, its low-level versions are very comparatively efficient, the gains of which then taper out. There aren't any other fire spells that do damage until FD5/Sorc 14 (the spell is Incendiary Cloud, though, which does a megafuckload of damage, basically an AoE version of Flaming Sphere that does twice as much damage and only allows save for half). This seems like an incentive for the FD to spam low-level spell slots for nova, and save his higher slots for empowered/maximized fireballs, which may or may not be fine, depending on how you want it to go. I'm still for making the range depend on level--given the numbers above, ranging it at, say, 5'/level sacrificed seems like it would keep the ability useful, but not as awesome for spamming, at lower levels, while slightly increasing its danger at the higher levels, making it more likely that the FD will find it worthwhile to sacrifice the slot and HP for such a cast. -[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]]
			: Well, I'd say most sorcs probably do not have a lot of metamagic feats because it takes a full round action to apply metamagic to sorc spells, and - as a casterphiliac - I find that the damage increasing feats are usually not worthwhile. An empowered fireball is like a, what, 5th level spell? Yeah, I'd rather cast cloudkill. Maximized fireball is a 6th level spell or something? I'm sure I could find something more useful with a 6th level spell slot than a 60 damage fireball that's only going to end up doing 30. -gm

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Slitherrr at 14:03, 2 November 2010

2010-11-02T14:03:44Z

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	''Lingering Flames (Metamagic)'' - The caster becomes so in tune with fire type spells that he or she gains the ability to increase the duration of instantaneous spells. If the caster takes a full round action to cast a fire spell, its duration may be changed from "instantaneous" to any number of rounds of the caster's choosing. For every round the spell is extended, the spell's effective level is increased by one. If Soul Furnace is used in conjunction with this ability, the increased damage must be paid for each round the caster wishes to have increased damage.		''Lingering Flames (Metamagic)'' - The caster becomes so in tune with fire type spells that he or she gains the ability to increase the duration of instantaneous spells. If the caster takes a full round action to cast a fire spell, its duration may be changed from "instantaneous" to any number of rounds of the caster's choosing. For every round the spell is extended, the spell's effective level is increased by one. If Soul Furnace is used in conjunction with this ability, the increased damage must be paid for each round the caster wishes to have increased damage.

	Example: A Burning Hands spell cast as a third level spell would burn from the casters fingertips for three rounds: The instantaneous duration, plus one round for each spell level. Any creature in the area of effect during the caster's turn, or entering into the area of effect on its own turn, takes the damage. (Much like Ice Storm of Fire Storm spells). Likewise, a fireball cast as a fourth level spell would do exist for the round of casting plus one round.		Example: A Burning Hands (level 1) spell cast as a third level spell would burn from the casters fingertips for three rounds: The instantaneous duration, plus one round for each additional spell level. Any creature in the area of effect during the caster's turn, or entering into the area of effect on its own turn, takes the damage. (Much like Ice Storm of Fire Storm spells). Likewise, a fireball (level 3) cast as a fourth level spell would do exist for the round of casting plus one round.
			{{talk\|
			The Soul Furnace question applies here, as well (to wit, does this apply to nova?). Also, does the caster have to maintain the spell in any way after the initial full round of cast?\|
			[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]] 10:03, 2 November 2010 (EDT)}}

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	::::: For that last reason, I've stopped arguing for bumping up the damage for the last couple of exchanges--the numbers are there to underscore my current objective, which is solely on making radius depend on level sacrificed. My reasoning is that a static radius makes it too attractive to run around burning low-level spells every round, and never ever have a reason to burn a high-level spell, which seems like a waste of potential. It seems like, if every single other level 5 option is better except in extreme cases, and in those cases you can get 90% of the efficacy from a nova using a spell slot one or two levels lower, thus saving your Cloud Kill or Empowered Fireball for when you escape those bonds or get out of that grapple, why include it as an option? I don't know if 5'/FD level is optimal in the light of the numbers, because it really diminishes the lower-level damage capacity and only marginally increases the higher-level damage capacity, but since these things have to come in 5' increments, I don't really know any better progression, and it serves my point, which is to spread out the use of this ability among the full spectrum of its capability, rather than limiting its usefulness to a subset of itself. -[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]]		::::: For that last reason, I've stopped arguing for bumping up the damage for the last couple of exchanges--the numbers are there to underscore my current objective, which is solely on making radius depend on level sacrificed. My reasoning is that a static radius makes it too attractive to run around burning low-level spells every round, and never ever have a reason to burn a high-level spell, which seems like a waste of potential. It seems like, if every single other level 5 option is better except in extreme cases, and in those cases you can get 90% of the efficacy from a nova using a spell slot one or two levels lower, thus saving your Cloud Kill or Empowered Fireball for when you escape those bonds or get out of that grapple, why include it as an option? I don't know if 5'/FD level is optimal in the light of the numbers, because it really diminishes the lower-level damage capacity and only marginally increases the higher-level damage capacity, but since these things have to come in 5' increments, I don't really know any better progression, and it serves my point, which is to spread out the use of this ability among the full spectrum of its capability, rather than limiting its usefulness to a subset of itself. -[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]]
	::One thing that has just occurred to me, and that hasn't come up yet, is that the damage is heavily dependent on the caster attribute bonus, which can make things a little...crazy. The spread between +0 and +5 on the level 5 nova is 30 points, non-variable. A caster with a +5 from ability bonus, buffed with, say, Eagle's Splendor, gives an ability bonus of +7 and an average damage of 59.5 for a level 5 nova, a full 12 points higher, completely non-variable. It's something to think about. -[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]]		::One thing that has just occurred to me, and that hasn't come up yet, is that the damage is heavily dependent on the caster attribute bonus, which can make things a little...crazy. The spread between +0 and +5 on the level 5 nova is 30 points, non-variable. A caster with a +5 from ability bonus, buffed with, say, Eagle's Splendor, gives an ability bonus of +7 and an average damage of 59.5 for a level 5 nova, a full 12 points higher, completely non-variable. It's something to think about. -[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]]
			:::Of course, this could be self-balancing, with the self-damage aspect, so that might be a non-issue. -[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]]
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	{\| class="collapsible collapsed wikitable"		{\| class="collapsible collapsed wikitable"