https://wiki.memphisgamers.com/index.php?action=history&feed=atom&title=Talk%3AGermain%27s_Character_SheetTalk:Germain's Character Sheet - Revision history2026-05-06T15:16:17ZRevision history for this page on the wikiMediaWiki 1.39.2https://wiki.memphisgamers.com/index.php?title=Talk:Germain%27s_Character_Sheet&diff=13774&oldid=prevSlitherrr at 22:52, 30 January 20132013-01-30T22:52:27Z<p></p>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Ride 12 to 10-- 5 ranks + 3 (c) + 2 (cha)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Ride 12 to 10-- 5 ranks + 3 (c) + 2 (cha)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div></pre></div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div></pre></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::::::::: Every skill below this goes up slightly, or stays the same, thanks to better INT for the knowledge skills, and class-skill bonus on some skills with very few ranks.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::::::::: Every skill below this goes up slightly, or stays the same, thanks to better INT for the knowledge skills, and class-skill bonus on some skills with very few ranks. <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">-[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Putting this back in after edit kill: [[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]] 15:58, 24 January 2013 (EST)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Putting this back in after edit kill: [[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]] 15:58, 24 January 2013 (EST)</div></td></tr>
</table>Slitherrrhttps://wiki.memphisgamers.com/index.php?title=Talk:Germain%27s_Character_Sheet&diff=13773&oldid=prevSlitherrr at 22:52, 30 January 20132013-01-30T22:52:06Z<p></p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 22:52, 30 January 2013</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l13">Line 13:</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::::::::: I think diplomacy will always go down after this conversion because they were so subject to synergy exploitation in 3.5. I haven't looked that close at Kib, but I'm sure Germain's dipl skill should go down quite a bit (~8 points?) post-migration. --[[User:Msallen|Msallen]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::::::::: I think diplomacy will always go down after this conversion because they were so subject to synergy exploitation in 3.5. I haven't looked that close at Kib, but I'm sure Germain's dipl skill should go down quite a bit (~8 points?) post-migration. --[[User:Msallen|Msallen]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::::::::: Here are the notes I scratched while I was doing this. These numbers assume I take a skill focus in Perception and one in Diplomacy. It also assumes I put my additional (human stat bonus) +2 in INT rather than, say, CHA or STR, which will decrease all those lower skills a tad (fewer ranks, lower bonuses for knowledge skills), but bump up his focused skills slightly. Without skill focus, diplo becomes 14 and Perception becomes 8, and I get back something like combat reflexes or hindering opportunist:</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::::::::: Here are the notes I scratched while I was doing this. These numbers assume I take a skill focus in Perception and one in Diplomacy. It also assumes I put my additional (human stat bonus) +2 in INT rather than, say, CHA or STR, which will decrease all those lower skills a tad (fewer ranks, lower bonuses for knowledge skills), but bump up his focused skills slightly. Without skill focus, diplo becomes 14 and Perception becomes 8, and I get back something like combat reflexes or hindering opportunist:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><pre></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Diplomacy 19 to 20-- 9 ranks + 3 (c) + 2 (cha) + 6 (sf >= 10 ranks)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Diplomacy 19 to 20-- 9 ranks + 3 (c) + 2 (cha) + 6 (sf >= 10 ranks)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Intimidate 14 to 14-- 9 ranks + 3 (c) + 2 (cha)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Intimidate 14 to 14-- 9 ranks + 3 (c) + 2 (cha)</div></td></tr>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Listen/Spot -> Perception, 11 to 11-- 9 ranks - 1 (wis) + 3 (sf < 10 ranks)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Listen/Spot -> Perception, 11 to 11-- 9 ranks - 1 (wis) + 3 (sf < 10 ranks)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Ride 12 to 10-- 5 ranks + 3 (c) + 2 (cha)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Ride 12 to 10-- 5 ranks + 3 (c) + 2 (cha)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></pre></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::::::::: Every skill below this goes up slightly, or stays the same, thanks to better INT for the knowledge skills, and class-skill bonus on some skills with very few ranks.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::::::::: Every skill below this goes up slightly, or stays the same, thanks to better INT for the knowledge skills, and class-skill bonus on some skills with very few ranks.</div></td></tr>
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</table>Slitherrrhttps://wiki.memphisgamers.com/index.php?title=Talk:Germain%27s_Character_Sheet&diff=13772&oldid=prevSlitherrr at 22:51, 30 January 20132013-01-30T22:51:43Z<p></p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 22:51, 30 January 2013</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l12">Line 12:</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::::::: Tactician: 4 bonus fighter/teamwork/skill focus feats (One less than it would be because extra skill points replaces it for level 1), 5 standard feats, 1 bonus human feat (which can be turned into 2 skill focus feats with one of the human bonus variants), and 1 tactician bonus feat that is teamwork-only, and can be used with the Tactician special ability. That's 11. 3.5e Kib has 4 standard feats, 1 human bonus feat, 4 professional bonus feats (including Leadership), and 2 fighter bonus feats. That comes out to eleven, but without the restrictions on the Pathfinder, AND with a loss in the conversion from Improved Trip (3.5e) -> Improved Trip + Greater Trip (PF). Perception goes down because he loses the +3 for them being class skills, and can only buy them to 9 (which comes to 8 with stat). He can make up for it with Skill Focus, but he has to then use a feat slot to do that. Diplomacy goes down from 19 to 14 (no synergy bonuses), a significant hit, but a skill focus feat actually bumps him past that. I glanced over Cavalier, but didn't calculate it with him. It's an interesting option, definitely throws him solidly into the "Mounted Combat" camp that he's been fiddling with for a while, removing a lot of his current flexibility in the process (replacing it with different flexibility through the Tactician ability). The Strategist archetype is specially interesting. It all is very different from 3.5e Kib, a completely different interpretation of similar spirit (as a side note, the Order stuff would introduce a lot of complicated stuff that would be fun to sort out through handwave/retcon). Of course, since converting all of the MeFight team would take way more work than they are probably willing to put in, this is all academic (but fun :)) -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::::::: Tactician: 4 bonus fighter/teamwork/skill focus feats (One less than it would be because extra skill points replaces it for level 1), 5 standard feats, 1 bonus human feat (which can be turned into 2 skill focus feats with one of the human bonus variants), and 1 tactician bonus feat that is teamwork-only, and can be used with the Tactician special ability. That's 11. 3.5e Kib has 4 standard feats, 1 human bonus feat, 4 professional bonus feats (including Leadership), and 2 fighter bonus feats. That comes out to eleven, but without the restrictions on the Pathfinder, AND with a loss in the conversion from Improved Trip (3.5e) -> Improved Trip + Greater Trip (PF). Perception goes down because he loses the +3 for them being class skills, and can only buy them to 9 (which comes to 8 with stat). He can make up for it with Skill Focus, but he has to then use a feat slot to do that. Diplomacy goes down from 19 to 14 (no synergy bonuses), a significant hit, but a skill focus feat actually bumps him past that. I glanced over Cavalier, but didn't calculate it with him. It's an interesting option, definitely throws him solidly into the "Mounted Combat" camp that he's been fiddling with for a while, removing a lot of his current flexibility in the process (replacing it with different flexibility through the Tactician ability). The Strategist archetype is specially interesting. It all is very different from 3.5e Kib, a completely different interpretation of similar spirit (as a side note, the Order stuff would introduce a lot of complicated stuff that would be fun to sort out through handwave/retcon). Of course, since converting all of the MeFight team would take way more work than they are probably willing to put in, this is all academic (but fun :)) -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::::::::: I think diplomacy will always go down after this conversion because they were so subject to synergy exploitation in 3.5. I haven't looked that close at Kib, but I'm sure Germain's dipl skill should go down quite a bit (~8 points?) post-migration. --[[User:Msallen|Msallen]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::::::::: I think diplomacy will always go down after this conversion because they were so subject to synergy exploitation in 3.5. I haven't looked that close at Kib, but I'm sure Germain's dipl skill should go down quite a bit (~8 points?) post-migration. --[[User:Msallen|Msallen]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">:::::::::::: Here are the notes I scratched while I was doing this. These numbers assume I take a skill focus in Perception and one in Diplomacy. It also assumes I put my additional (human stat bonus) +2 in INT rather than, say, CHA or STR, which will decrease all those lower skills a tad (fewer ranks, lower bonuses for knowledge skills), but bump up his focused skills slightly. Without skill focus, diplo becomes 14 and Perception becomes 8, and I get back something like combat reflexes or hindering opportunist:</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Diplomacy 19 to 20-- 9 ranks + 3 (c) + 2 (cha) + 6 (sf >= 10 ranks)</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Intimidate 14 to 14-- 9 ranks + 3 (c) + 2 (cha)</ins></div></td></tr>
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<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Listen/Spot -> Perception, 11 to 11-- 9 ranks - 1 (wis) + 3 (sf < 10 ranks)</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Ride 12 to 10-- 5 ranks + 3 (c) + 2 (cha)</ins></div></td></tr>
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<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">:::::::::::: Every skill below this goes up slightly, or stays the same, thanks to better INT for the knowledge skills, and class-skill bonus on some skills with very few ranks.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Putting this back in after edit kill: [[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]] 15:58, 24 January 2013 (EST)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Putting this back in after edit kill: [[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]] 15:58, 24 January 2013 (EST)</div></td></tr>
</table>Slitherrrhttps://wiki.memphisgamers.com/index.php?title=Talk:Germain%27s_Character_Sheet&diff=13771&oldid=prevMsallen at 16:22, 30 January 20132013-01-30T16:22:08Z<p></p>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::::::: You're really going to *lose* feats? That's hard to believe. PF has a different feat progression, remember: 1,3,5,7,9... Even with that you come out with less feats? Honestly, I'm surprised that the conversion hits Kib so hard in the core of his build. Of course, Pathfinder opens up the Cavalier class for Kib, which is very Kibby and turns Tenny into a legit Animal Companion. Also: How badly do perception and diplomacy take a hit? There are no "cross-class skills" in Pathfinder, so you ought to still be able to buy up perception to a decent level even without the +3 Class Skill Bonus. -gm</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::::::: You're really going to *lose* feats? That's hard to believe. PF has a different feat progression, remember: 1,3,5,7,9... Even with that you come out with less feats? Honestly, I'm surprised that the conversion hits Kib so hard in the core of his build. Of course, Pathfinder opens up the Cavalier class for Kib, which is very Kibby and turns Tenny into a legit Animal Companion. Also: How badly do perception and diplomacy take a hit? There are no "cross-class skills" in Pathfinder, so you ought to still be able to buy up perception to a decent level even without the +3 Class Skill Bonus. -gm</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::::::: Tactician: 4 bonus fighter/teamwork/skill focus feats (One less than it would be because extra skill points replaces it for level 1), 5 standard feats, 1 bonus human feat (which can be turned into 2 skill focus feats with one of the human bonus variants), and 1 tactician bonus feat that is teamwork-only, and can be used with the Tactician special ability. That's 11. 3.5e Kib has 4 standard feats, 1 human bonus feat, 4 professional bonus feats (including Leadership), and 2 fighter bonus feats. That comes out to eleven, but without the restrictions on the Pathfinder, AND with a loss in the conversion from Improved Trip (3.5e) -> Improved Trip + Greater Trip (PF). Perception goes down because he loses the +3 for them being class skills, and can only buy them to 9 (which comes to 8 with stat). He can make up for it with Skill Focus, but he has to then use a feat slot to do that. Diplomacy goes down from 19 to 14 (no synergy bonuses), a significant hit, but a skill focus feat actually bumps him past that. I glanced over Cavalier, but didn't calculate it with him. It's an interesting option, definitely throws him solidly into the "Mounted Combat" camp that he's been fiddling with for a while, removing a lot of his current flexibility in the process (replacing it with different flexibility through the Tactician ability). The Strategist archetype is specially interesting. It all is very different from 3.5e Kib, a completely different interpretation of similar spirit (as a side note, the Order stuff would introduce a lot of complicated stuff that would be fun to sort out through handwave/retcon). Of course, since converting all of the MeFight team would take way more work than they are probably willing to put in, this is all academic (but fun :)) -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::::::: Tactician: 4 bonus fighter/teamwork/skill focus feats (One less than it would be because extra skill points replaces it for level 1), 5 standard feats, 1 bonus human feat (which can be turned into 2 skill focus feats with one of the human bonus variants), and 1 tactician bonus feat that is teamwork-only, and can be used with the Tactician special ability. That's 11. 3.5e Kib has 4 standard feats, 1 human bonus feat, 4 professional bonus feats (including Leadership), and 2 fighter bonus feats. That comes out to eleven, but without the restrictions on the Pathfinder, AND with a loss in the conversion from Improved Trip (3.5e) -> Improved Trip + Greater Trip (PF). Perception goes down because he loses the +3 for them being class skills, and can only buy them to 9 (which comes to 8 with stat). He can make up for it with Skill Focus, but he has to then use a feat slot to do that. Diplomacy goes down from 19 to 14 (no synergy bonuses), a significant hit, but a skill focus feat actually bumps him past that. I glanced over Cavalier, but didn't calculate it with him. It's an interesting option, definitely throws him solidly into the "Mounted Combat" camp that he's been fiddling with for a while, removing a lot of his current flexibility in the process (replacing it with different flexibility through the Tactician ability). The Strategist archetype is specially interesting. It all is very different from 3.5e Kib, a completely different interpretation of similar spirit (as a side note, the Order stuff would introduce a lot of complicated stuff that would be fun to sort out through handwave/retcon). Of course, since converting all of the MeFight team would take way more work than they are probably willing to put in, this is all academic (but fun :)) -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">::::::::::: I think diplomacy will always go down after this conversion because they were so subject to synergy exploitation in 3.5. I haven't looked that close at Kib, but I'm sure Germain's dipl skill should go down quite a bit (~8 points?) post-migration. --[[User:Msallen|Msallen]]</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Putting this back in after edit kill: [[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]] 15:58, 24 January 2013 (EST)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Putting this back in after edit kill: [[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]] 15:58, 24 January 2013 (EST)</div></td></tr>
</table>Msallenhttps://wiki.memphisgamers.com/index.php?title=Talk:Germain%27s_Character_Sheet&diff=13768&oldid=prevSlitherrr at 06:50, 29 January 20132013-01-29T06:50:01Z<p></p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 06:50, 29 January 2013</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l9">Line 9:</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::::: Ok, did the calculations. The skills actually come up interestingly--assuming I level Fighter only (tactician archetype) all my best skills go down by some amount (thanks to loss in synergy bonuses), which can be made up for somewhat by taking the skill focus racial trait (which will be like getting two "free" skill focus feats, with another coming at level 16). All but my top four skills remain unchanged, or go up by a point. I gain three stat points (current total comes to 19, so I can gain a point in something 12 or less, which probably means charisma, and human gets a +2, which would go into either str, int or cha, most likely). This would allow me to increase my non-focused skills, but wouldn't have much effect on my top skills unless I chose Charisma for the +2. My AC goes down by three (no insightful defense). I get the same number of feats, but some of the Pathfinder stuff require more feats to get the same effect I have (I have to go to Greater trip in order to get the same effect as Imp Trip, for example). My saves TANK--without the improved Professional progression, I go from being pretty great save-wise to essentially only having decent fort, with no real way to make it up in feats unless I give up some combat ability. My BaB goes up two points, though, and I can get +1 attack/damage with a class of weapons. The tactician main ability is pretty cool--apply a teamwork feat that I choose to someone else within 30 feet some number of times per day that depends on Int. I lose some other Int-based synergy (not really as much as I originally thought though)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::::: Ok, did the calculations. The skills actually come up interestingly--assuming I level Fighter only (tactician archetype) all my best skills go down by some amount (thanks to loss in synergy bonuses), which can be made up for somewhat by taking the skill focus racial trait (which will be like getting two "free" skill focus feats, with another coming at level 16). All but my top four skills remain unchanged, or go up by a point. I gain three stat points (current total comes to 19, so I can gain a point in something 12 or less, which probably means charisma, and human gets a +2, which would go into either str, int or cha, most likely). This would allow me to increase my non-focused skills, but wouldn't have much effect on my top skills unless I chose Charisma for the +2. My AC goes down by three (no insightful defense). I get the same number of feats, but some of the Pathfinder stuff require more feats to get the same effect I have (I have to go to Greater trip in order to get the same effect as Imp Trip, for example). My saves TANK--without the improved Professional progression, I go from being pretty great save-wise to essentially only having decent fort, with no real way to make it up in feats unless I give up some combat ability. My BaB goes up two points, though, and I can get +1 attack/damage with a class of weapons. The tactician main ability is pretty cool--apply a teamwork feat that I choose to someone else within 30 feet some number of times per day that depends on Int. I lose some other Int-based synergy (not really as much as I originally thought though)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::::: In sum, Kib gets a significant numerical boost in combat fundamentals (more hp and more damage), but becomes less generally defensive (shittier saves, except fort, base AC on BP goes up by one, but loss of insightful defense removes the gains and tactician isn't proficient in heavy armor), and less interesting tactically (fewer feats available for combat options like trip, blind fight, etc, although with the gain of a single teamwork feat that can admittedly be pretty powerful, if situational), and becomes worse at the not-strictly-combat aspects of his job (diplomacy goes down, perception goes down, etc). That's assuming all the DCs in Pathfinder are roughly on the same scale as in 3.5e, which I don't really know enough about. If he goes the Field Marshall route, still (which he can actually get earlier thanks to the better BaB of the fighter), his saves go up a bit (reflex remains horrible), he loses a feat, a weapon training level, and an armor training level, but gets back insightful defense (via keen awareness), and can now apply his commanding presence to saves/init/AC in addition to skills. He also misses out on ever getting Armor/Weapon mastery, and some favored class bonuses. It's an interesting trade-off. -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::::: In sum, Kib gets a significant numerical boost in combat fundamentals (more hp and more damage), but becomes less generally defensive (shittier saves, except fort, base AC on BP goes up by one, but loss of insightful defense removes the gains and tactician isn't proficient in heavy armor), and less interesting tactically (fewer feats available for combat options like trip, blind fight, etc, although with the gain of a single teamwork feat that can admittedly be pretty powerful, if situational), and becomes worse at the not-strictly-combat aspects of his job (diplomacy goes down, perception goes down, etc). That's assuming all the DCs in Pathfinder are roughly on the same scale as in 3.5e, which I don't really know enough about. If he goes the Field Marshall route, still (which he can actually get earlier thanks to the better BaB of the fighter), his saves go up a bit (reflex remains horrible), he loses a feat, a weapon training level, and an armor training level, but gets back insightful defense (via keen awareness), and can now apply his commanding presence to saves/init/AC in addition to skills. He also misses out on ever getting Armor/Weapon mastery, and some favored class bonuses. It's an interesting trade-off. -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::::::: You're <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">realling </del>going to *lose* feats? That's hard to believe. PF has a different feat progression, remember: 1,3,5,7,9... Even with that you come out with less feats? Honestly, I'm surprised that the conversion hits Kib so hard in the core of his build. Of course, Pathfinder opens up the Cavalier class for Kib, which is very Kibby and turns Tenny into a legit Animal Companion. Also: How badly do perception and diplomacy take a hit? There are no "cross-class skills" in Pathfinder, so you ought to still be able to buy up perception to a decent level even without the +3 Class Skill Bonus. -gm</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::::::: You're <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">really </ins>going to *lose* feats? That's hard to believe. PF has a different feat progression, remember: 1,3,5,7,9... Even with that you come out with less feats? Honestly, I'm surprised that the conversion hits Kib so hard in the core of his build. Of course, Pathfinder opens up the Cavalier class for Kib, which is very Kibby and turns Tenny into a legit Animal Companion. Also: How badly do perception and diplomacy take a hit? There are no "cross-class skills" in Pathfinder, so you ought to still be able to buy up perception to a decent level even without the +3 Class Skill Bonus. -gm</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">:::::::::: Tactician: 4 bonus fighter/teamwork/skill focus feats (One less than it would be because extra skill points replaces it for level 1), 5 standard feats, 1 bonus human feat (which can be turned into 2 skill focus feats with one of the human bonus variants), and 1 tactician bonus feat that is teamwork-only, and can be used with the Tactician special ability. That's 11. 3.5e Kib has 4 standard feats, 1 human bonus feat, 4 professional bonus feats (including Leadership), and 2 fighter bonus feats. That comes out to eleven, but without the restrictions on the Pathfinder, AND with a loss in the conversion from Improved Trip (3.5e) -> Improved Trip + Greater Trip (PF). Perception goes down because he loses the +3 for them being class skills, and can only buy them to 9 (which comes to 8 with stat). He can make up for it with Skill Focus, but he has to then use a feat slot to do that. Diplomacy goes down from 19 to 14 (no synergy bonuses), a significant hit, but a skill focus feat actually bumps him past that. I glanced over Cavalier, but didn't calculate it with him. It's an interesting option, definitely throws him solidly into the "Mounted Combat" camp that he's been fiddling with for a while, removing a lot of his current flexibility in the process (replacing it with different flexibility through the Tactician ability). The Strategist archetype is specially interesting. It all is very different from 3.5e Kib, a completely different interpretation of similar spirit (as a side note, the Order stuff would introduce a lot of complicated stuff that would be fun to sort out through handwave/retcon). Of course, since converting all of the MeFight team would take way more work than they are probably willing to put in, this is all academic (but fun :)) -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
</table>Slitherrrhttps://wiki.memphisgamers.com/index.php?title=Talk:Germain%27s_Character_Sheet&diff=13765&oldid=prevDetarame at 17:02, 27 January 20132013-01-27T17:02:13Z<p></p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 17:02, 27 January 2013</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l9">Line 9:</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::::: Ok, did the calculations. The skills actually come up interestingly--assuming I level Fighter only (tactician archetype) all my best skills go down by some amount (thanks to loss in synergy bonuses), which can be made up for somewhat by taking the skill focus racial trait (which will be like getting two "free" skill focus feats, with another coming at level 16). All but my top four skills remain unchanged, or go up by a point. I gain three stat points (current total comes to 19, so I can gain a point in something 12 or less, which probably means charisma, and human gets a +2, which would go into either str, int or cha, most likely). This would allow me to increase my non-focused skills, but wouldn't have much effect on my top skills unless I chose Charisma for the +2. My AC goes down by three (no insightful defense). I get the same number of feats, but some of the Pathfinder stuff require more feats to get the same effect I have (I have to go to Greater trip in order to get the same effect as Imp Trip, for example). My saves TANK--without the improved Professional progression, I go from being pretty great save-wise to essentially only having decent fort, with no real way to make it up in feats unless I give up some combat ability. My BaB goes up two points, though, and I can get +1 attack/damage with a class of weapons. The tactician main ability is pretty cool--apply a teamwork feat that I choose to someone else within 30 feet some number of times per day that depends on Int. I lose some other Int-based synergy (not really as much as I originally thought though)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::::: Ok, did the calculations. The skills actually come up interestingly--assuming I level Fighter only (tactician archetype) all my best skills go down by some amount (thanks to loss in synergy bonuses), which can be made up for somewhat by taking the skill focus racial trait (which will be like getting two "free" skill focus feats, with another coming at level 16). All but my top four skills remain unchanged, or go up by a point. I gain three stat points (current total comes to 19, so I can gain a point in something 12 or less, which probably means charisma, and human gets a +2, which would go into either str, int or cha, most likely). This would allow me to increase my non-focused skills, but wouldn't have much effect on my top skills unless I chose Charisma for the +2. My AC goes down by three (no insightful defense). I get the same number of feats, but some of the Pathfinder stuff require more feats to get the same effect I have (I have to go to Greater trip in order to get the same effect as Imp Trip, for example). My saves TANK--without the improved Professional progression, I go from being pretty great save-wise to essentially only having decent fort, with no real way to make it up in feats unless I give up some combat ability. My BaB goes up two points, though, and I can get +1 attack/damage with a class of weapons. The tactician main ability is pretty cool--apply a teamwork feat that I choose to someone else within 30 feet some number of times per day that depends on Int. I lose some other Int-based synergy (not really as much as I originally thought though)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::::: In sum, Kib gets a significant numerical boost in combat fundamentals (more hp and more damage), but becomes less generally defensive (shittier saves, except fort, base AC on BP goes up by one, but loss of insightful defense removes the gains and tactician isn't proficient in heavy armor), and less interesting tactically (fewer feats available for combat options like trip, blind fight, etc, although with the gain of a single teamwork feat that can admittedly be pretty powerful, if situational), and becomes worse at the not-strictly-combat aspects of his job (diplomacy goes down, perception goes down, etc). That's assuming all the DCs in Pathfinder are roughly on the same scale as in 3.5e, which I don't really know enough about. If he goes the Field Marshall route, still (which he can actually get earlier thanks to the better BaB of the fighter), his saves go up a bit (reflex remains horrible), he loses a feat, a weapon training level, and an armor training level, but gets back insightful defense (via keen awareness), and can now apply his commanding presence to saves/init/AC in addition to skills. He also misses out on ever getting Armor/Weapon mastery, and some favored class bonuses. It's an interesting trade-off. -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::::: In sum, Kib gets a significant numerical boost in combat fundamentals (more hp and more damage), but becomes less generally defensive (shittier saves, except fort, base AC on BP goes up by one, but loss of insightful defense removes the gains and tactician isn't proficient in heavy armor), and less interesting tactically (fewer feats available for combat options like trip, blind fight, etc, although with the gain of a single teamwork feat that can admittedly be pretty powerful, if situational), and becomes worse at the not-strictly-combat aspects of his job (diplomacy goes down, perception goes down, etc). That's assuming all the DCs in Pathfinder are roughly on the same scale as in 3.5e, which I don't really know enough about. If he goes the Field Marshall route, still (which he can actually get earlier thanks to the better BaB of the fighter), his saves go up a bit (reflex remains horrible), he loses a feat, a weapon training level, and an armor training level, but gets back insightful defense (via keen awareness), and can now apply his commanding presence to saves/init/AC in addition to skills. He also misses out on ever getting Armor/Weapon mastery, and some favored class bonuses. It's an interesting trade-off. -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::::::: You're realling going to *lose* feats? That's hard to believe. PF has a different feat progression, remember: 1,3,5,7,9... Even with that you come out with less feats? Honestly, I'm surprised that the conversion hits Kib so hard in the core of his build. Of course, Pathfinder opens up the Cavalier class for Kib, which is very Kibby and turns Tenny into a legit Animal Companion. -gm</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::::::: You're realling going to *lose* feats? That's hard to believe. PF has a different feat progression, remember: 1,3,5,7,9... Even with that you come out with less feats? Honestly, I'm surprised that the conversion hits Kib so hard in the core of his build. Of course, Pathfinder opens up the Cavalier class for Kib, which is very Kibby and turns Tenny into a legit Animal Companion<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">. Also: How badly do perception and diplomacy take a hit? There are no "cross-class skills" in Pathfinder, so you ought to still be able to buy up perception to a decent level even without the +3 Class Skill Bonus</ins>. -gm</div></td></tr>
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</table>Detaramehttps://wiki.memphisgamers.com/index.php?title=Talk:Germain%27s_Character_Sheet&diff=13764&oldid=prevDetarame at 17:00, 27 January 20132013-01-27T17:00:32Z<p></p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 17:00, 27 January 2013</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l9">Line 9:</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::::: Ok, did the calculations. The skills actually come up interestingly--assuming I level Fighter only (tactician archetype) all my best skills go down by some amount (thanks to loss in synergy bonuses), which can be made up for somewhat by taking the skill focus racial trait (which will be like getting two "free" skill focus feats, with another coming at level 16). All but my top four skills remain unchanged, or go up by a point. I gain three stat points (current total comes to 19, so I can gain a point in something 12 or less, which probably means charisma, and human gets a +2, which would go into either str, int or cha, most likely). This would allow me to increase my non-focused skills, but wouldn't have much effect on my top skills unless I chose Charisma for the +2. My AC goes down by three (no insightful defense). I get the same number of feats, but some of the Pathfinder stuff require more feats to get the same effect I have (I have to go to Greater trip in order to get the same effect as Imp Trip, for example). My saves TANK--without the improved Professional progression, I go from being pretty great save-wise to essentially only having decent fort, with no real way to make it up in feats unless I give up some combat ability. My BaB goes up two points, though, and I can get +1 attack/damage with a class of weapons. The tactician main ability is pretty cool--apply a teamwork feat that I choose to someone else within 30 feet some number of times per day that depends on Int. I lose some other Int-based synergy (not really as much as I originally thought though)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::::: Ok, did the calculations. The skills actually come up interestingly--assuming I level Fighter only (tactician archetype) all my best skills go down by some amount (thanks to loss in synergy bonuses), which can be made up for somewhat by taking the skill focus racial trait (which will be like getting two "free" skill focus feats, with another coming at level 16). All but my top four skills remain unchanged, or go up by a point. I gain three stat points (current total comes to 19, so I can gain a point in something 12 or less, which probably means charisma, and human gets a +2, which would go into either str, int or cha, most likely). This would allow me to increase my non-focused skills, but wouldn't have much effect on my top skills unless I chose Charisma for the +2. My AC goes down by three (no insightful defense). I get the same number of feats, but some of the Pathfinder stuff require more feats to get the same effect I have (I have to go to Greater trip in order to get the same effect as Imp Trip, for example). My saves TANK--without the improved Professional progression, I go from being pretty great save-wise to essentially only having decent fort, with no real way to make it up in feats unless I give up some combat ability. My BaB goes up two points, though, and I can get +1 attack/damage with a class of weapons. The tactician main ability is pretty cool--apply a teamwork feat that I choose to someone else within 30 feet some number of times per day that depends on Int. I lose some other Int-based synergy (not really as much as I originally thought though)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::::: In sum, Kib gets a significant numerical boost in combat fundamentals (more hp and more damage), but becomes less generally defensive (shittier saves, except fort, base AC on BP goes up by one, but loss of insightful defense removes the gains and tactician isn't proficient in heavy armor), and less interesting tactically (fewer feats available for combat options like trip, blind fight, etc, although with the gain of a single teamwork feat that can admittedly be pretty powerful, if situational), and becomes worse at the not-strictly-combat aspects of his job (diplomacy goes down, perception goes down, etc). That's assuming all the DCs in Pathfinder are roughly on the same scale as in 3.5e, which I don't really know enough about. If he goes the Field Marshall route, still (which he can actually get earlier thanks to the better BaB of the fighter), his saves go up a bit (reflex remains horrible), he loses a feat, a weapon training level, and an armor training level, but gets back insightful defense (via keen awareness), and can now apply his commanding presence to saves/init/AC in addition to skills. He also misses out on ever getting Armor/Weapon mastery, and some favored class bonuses. It's an interesting trade-off. -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::::: In sum, Kib gets a significant numerical boost in combat fundamentals (more hp and more damage), but becomes less generally defensive (shittier saves, except fort, base AC on BP goes up by one, but loss of insightful defense removes the gains and tactician isn't proficient in heavy armor), and less interesting tactically (fewer feats available for combat options like trip, blind fight, etc, although with the gain of a single teamwork feat that can admittedly be pretty powerful, if situational), and becomes worse at the not-strictly-combat aspects of his job (diplomacy goes down, perception goes down, etc). That's assuming all the DCs in Pathfinder are roughly on the same scale as in 3.5e, which I don't really know enough about. If he goes the Field Marshall route, still (which he can actually get earlier thanks to the better BaB of the fighter), his saves go up a bit (reflex remains horrible), he loses a feat, a weapon training level, and an armor training level, but gets back insightful defense (via keen awareness), and can now apply his commanding presence to saves/init/AC in addition to skills. He also misses out on ever getting Armor/Weapon mastery, and some favored class bonuses. It's an interesting trade-off. -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">::::::::: You're realling going to *lose* feats? That's hard to believe. PF has a different feat progression, remember: 1,3,5,7,9... Even with that you come out with less feats? Honestly, I'm surprised that the conversion hits Kib so hard in the core of his build. Of course, Pathfinder opens up the Cavalier class for Kib, which is very Kibby and turns Tenny into a legit Animal Companion. -gm</ins></div></td></tr>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Putting this back in after edit kill: [[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]] 15:58, 24 January 2013 (EST)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Putting this back in after edit kill: [[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]] 15:58, 24 January 2013 (EST)</div></td></tr>
</table>Detaramehttps://wiki.memphisgamers.com/index.php?title=Talk:Germain%27s_Character_Sheet&diff=13763&oldid=prevSlitherrr at 01:39, 26 January 20132013-01-26T01:39:09Z<p></p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 01:39, 26 January 2013</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::: It is interesting, I was looking at it and it most likely looks like PF fighter (tactician archetype) fits Kib's ORIGINAL intent much better than the current prof/fighter/field marshall thing does, although it doesn't necessarily fit what he has become over the course (very skill-heavy beefy type with well-rounded defenses), since his total skill points will likely drop below the point at which skill consolidation will make up for it. I might do this conversion just for the exercise and the sheer curiosity. -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::: It is interesting, I was looking at it and it most likely looks like PF fighter (tactician archetype) fits Kib's ORIGINAL intent much better than the current prof/fighter/field marshall thing does, although it doesn't necessarily fit what he has become over the course (very skill-heavy beefy type with well-rounded defenses), since his total skill points will likely drop below the point at which skill consolidation will make up for it. I might do this conversion just for the exercise and the sheer curiosity. -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::::: You'd be surprised. It's possible, since I suppose you'd be using a lot of your Favored Class level bonuses for skills or CMD defense instead of HP, so maybe. The Toughness feat is actually not sucky anymore (+HD instead of +3), and everyone is going to end up with more feats. Tactically, there are some wins and losses for Kib in the switch from complex maneuver rules to the CMB/CMD but overall better, especially from a pacing PoV. Also dropping Professional gains some more hit point from the HD upgrade. I think Field Marshal could probably be ported over to PF directly, but if someone WAS going to remake them for PF, it might be interesting to make them more modular and bring over the class trait menu mechanic from things like rogue/gunslinger/etc. Let them build more crafted AoEs. I think Dragoman is another class ripe for this sort of treatment. -gm </div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::::: You'd be surprised. It's possible, since I suppose you'd be using a lot of your Favored Class level bonuses for skills or CMD defense instead of HP, so maybe. The Toughness feat is actually not sucky anymore (+HD instead of +3), and everyone is going to end up with more feats. Tactically, there are some wins and losses for Kib in the switch from complex maneuver rules to the CMB/CMD but overall better, especially from a pacing PoV. Also dropping Professional gains some more hit point from the HD upgrade. I think Field Marshal could probably be ported over to PF directly, but if someone WAS going to remake them for PF, it might be interesting to make them more modular and bring over the class trait menu mechanic from things like rogue/gunslinger/etc. Let them build more crafted AoEs. I think Dragoman is another class ripe for this sort of treatment. -gm </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::::: Ok, did the calculations. The skills actually come up interestingly--assuming I level Fighter only (tactician archetype) all my best skills go down by some amount (thanks to loss in synergy bonuses), which can be made up for somewhat by taking the skill focus racial trait (which will be like getting two "free" skill focus feats, with another coming at level 16). All but my top four skills remain unchanged, or go up by a point. I gain three stat points (current total comes to 19, so I can gain a point in something 12 or less, which probably means charisma, and human gets a +2<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">)</del>, which <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">could </del>go <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">in </del>int <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">for more skills</del>, <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">or anything else for some other effect</del>. This would allow me to increase my non-focused skills, but wouldn't have much effect on my top skills unless I chose Charisma for the +2. My AC goes down by three (no insightful defense). I get the same number of feats, but some of the Pathfinder stuff require more feats to get the same effect I have (I have to go to Greater trip in order to get the same effect as Imp Trip, for example). My saves TANK--without the improved Professional progression, I go from being pretty great save-wise to essentially only having decent fort, with no real way to make it up in feats unless I give up some combat ability. My BaB goes up two points, though, and I can get +1 attack/damage with a class of weapons. The tactician main ability is pretty cool--apply a teamwork feat that I choose to someone else within 30 <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">feat </del>some number of times per day. I lose <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">a lot of </del>other synergy <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">with Int, </del>though<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">.</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::::: Ok, did the calculations. The skills actually come up interestingly--assuming I level Fighter only (tactician archetype) all my best skills go down by some amount (thanks to loss in synergy bonuses), which can be made up for somewhat by taking the skill focus racial trait (which will be like getting two "free" skill focus feats, with another coming at level 16). All but my top four skills remain unchanged, or go up by a point. I gain three stat points (current total comes to 19, so I can gain a point in something 12 or less, which probably means charisma, and human gets a +2, which <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">would </ins>go <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">into either str, </ins>int <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">or cha</ins>, <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">most likely)</ins>. This would allow me to increase my non-focused skills, but wouldn't have much effect on my top skills unless I chose Charisma for the +2. My AC goes down by three (no insightful defense). I get the same number of feats, but some of the Pathfinder stuff require more feats to get the same effect I have (I have to go to Greater trip in order to get the same effect as Imp Trip, for example). My saves TANK--without the improved Professional progression, I go from being pretty great save-wise to essentially only having decent fort, with no real way to make it up in feats unless I give up some combat ability. My BaB goes up two points, though, and I can get +1 attack/damage with a class of weapons. The tactician main ability is pretty cool--apply a teamwork feat that I choose to someone else within 30 <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">feet </ins>some number of times per day <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">that depends on Int</ins>. I lose <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">some </ins>other <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Int-based </ins>synergy <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">(not really as much as I originally thought </ins>though<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">)</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::::: In sum, Kib gets a significant numerical boost in combat fundamentals (more hp and more damage), but becomes less generally defensive (shittier saves, except fort, base AC on BP goes up by one, but loss of insightful defense removes the gains and tactician isn't proficient in heavy armor), and less interesting tactically (fewer feats available for combat options like trip, blind fight, etc, although with the gain of a single teamwork feat that can admittedly be pretty powerful, if situational), and becomes worse at the not-strictly-combat aspects of his job (diplomacy goes down, perception goes down, etc). That's assuming all the DCs in Pathfinder are roughly on the same scale as in 3.5e, which I don't really know enough about. If he goes the Field Marshall route, still (which he can actually get earlier thanks to the better BaB of the fighter), his saves go up a bit (reflex remains horrible), he loses a feat, a weapon training level, and an armor training level, but gets back insightful defense (via keen awareness), and can now apply his commanding presence to saves/init/AC in addition to skills. He also misses out on ever getting Armor/Weapon mastery, and some favored class bonuses. It's an interesting trade-off. -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::::: In sum, Kib gets a significant numerical boost in combat fundamentals (more hp and more damage), but becomes less generally defensive (shittier saves, except fort, base AC on BP goes up by one, but loss of insightful defense removes the gains and tactician isn't proficient in heavy armor), and less interesting tactically (fewer feats available for combat options like trip, blind fight, etc, although with the gain of a single teamwork feat that can admittedly be pretty powerful, if situational), and becomes worse at the not-strictly-combat aspects of his job (diplomacy goes down, perception goes down, etc). That's assuming all the DCs in Pathfinder are roughly on the same scale as in 3.5e, which I don't really know enough about. If he goes the Field Marshall route, still (which he can actually get earlier thanks to the better BaB of the fighter), his saves go up a bit (reflex remains horrible), he loses a feat, a weapon training level, and an armor training level, but gets back insightful defense (via keen awareness), and can now apply his commanding presence to saves/init/AC in addition to skills. He also misses out on ever getting Armor/Weapon mastery, and some favored class bonuses. It's an interesting trade-off. -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
</table>Slitherrrhttps://wiki.memphisgamers.com/index.php?title=Talk:Germain%27s_Character_Sheet&diff=13762&oldid=prevSlitherrr at 22:29, 25 January 20132013-01-25T22:29:49Z<p></p>
<table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface">
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<tr class="diff-title" lang="en">
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 22:29, 25 January 2013</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l8">Line 8:</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::::: You'd be surprised. It's possible, since I suppose you'd be using a lot of your Favored Class level bonuses for skills or CMD defense instead of HP, so maybe. The Toughness feat is actually not sucky anymore (+HD instead of +3), and everyone is going to end up with more feats. Tactically, there are some wins and losses for Kib in the switch from complex maneuver rules to the CMB/CMD but overall better, especially from a pacing PoV. Also dropping Professional gains some more hit point from the HD upgrade. I think Field Marshal could probably be ported over to PF directly, but if someone WAS going to remake them for PF, it might be interesting to make them more modular and bring over the class trait menu mechanic from things like rogue/gunslinger/etc. Let them build more crafted AoEs. I think Dragoman is another class ripe for this sort of treatment. -gm </div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::::: You'd be surprised. It's possible, since I suppose you'd be using a lot of your Favored Class level bonuses for skills or CMD defense instead of HP, so maybe. The Toughness feat is actually not sucky anymore (+HD instead of +3), and everyone is going to end up with more feats. Tactically, there are some wins and losses for Kib in the switch from complex maneuver rules to the CMB/CMD but overall better, especially from a pacing PoV. Also dropping Professional gains some more hit point from the HD upgrade. I think Field Marshal could probably be ported over to PF directly, but if someone WAS going to remake them for PF, it might be interesting to make them more modular and bring over the class trait menu mechanic from things like rogue/gunslinger/etc. Let them build more crafted AoEs. I think Dragoman is another class ripe for this sort of treatment. -gm </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::::: Ok, did the calculations. The skills actually come up interestingly--assuming I level Fighter only (tactician archetype) all my best skills go down by some amount (thanks to loss in synergy bonuses), which can be made up for somewhat by taking the skill focus racial trait (which will be like getting two "free" skill focus feats, with another coming at level 16). All but my top four skills remain unchanged, or go up by a point. I gain three stat points (current total comes to 19, so I can gain a point in something 12 or less, which probably means charisma, and human gets a +2), which could go in int for more skills, or anything else for some other effect. This would allow me to increase my non-focused skills, but wouldn't have much effect on my top skills unless I chose Charisma for the +2. My AC goes down by three (no insightful defense). I get the same number of feats, but some of the Pathfinder stuff require more feats to get the same effect I have (I have to go to Greater trip in order to get the same effect as Imp Trip, for example). My saves TANK--without the improved Professional progression, I go from being pretty great save-wise to essentially only having decent fort, with no real way to make it up in feats unless I give up some combat ability. My BaB goes up two points, though, and I can get +1 attack/damage with a class of weapons. The tactician main ability is pretty cool--apply a teamwork feat that I choose to someone else within 30 feat some number of times per day. I lose a lot of other synergy with Int, though.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::::: Ok, did the calculations. The skills actually come up interestingly--assuming I level Fighter only (tactician archetype) all my best skills go down by some amount (thanks to loss in synergy bonuses), which can be made up for somewhat by taking the skill focus racial trait (which will be like getting two "free" skill focus feats, with another coming at level 16). All but my top four skills remain unchanged, or go up by a point. I gain three stat points (current total comes to 19, so I can gain a point in something 12 or less, which probably means charisma, and human gets a +2), which could go in int for more skills, or anything else for some other effect. This would allow me to increase my non-focused skills, but wouldn't have much effect on my top skills unless I chose Charisma for the +2. My AC goes down by three (no insightful defense). I get the same number of feats, but some of the Pathfinder stuff require more feats to get the same effect I have (I have to go to Greater trip in order to get the same effect as Imp Trip, for example). My saves TANK--without the improved Professional progression, I go from being pretty great save-wise to essentially only having decent fort, with no real way to make it up in feats unless I give up some combat ability. My BaB goes up two points, though, and I can get +1 attack/damage with a class of weapons. The tactician main ability is pretty cool--apply a teamwork feat that I choose to someone else within 30 feat some number of times per day. I lose a lot of other synergy with Int, though.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::::: In sum, Kib gets a significant numerical boost in combat fundamentals (more hp and more damage), but becomes less generally defensive (shittier saves, except fort, base AC on BP goes up by one, but loss of insightful defense removes the gains and tactician isn't proficient in heavy armor), and less interesting tactically (fewer feats available for combat options like trip, blind fight, etc, although with the gain of a single teamwork feat that can admittedly be pretty powerful, <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">albeit </del>situational), and becomes worse at the not-strictly-combat aspects of his job (diplomacy goes down, perception goes down, etc). That's assuming all the DCs in Pathfinder are roughly on the same scale as in 3.5e, which I don't really know enough about. If he goes the Field Marshall route, still (which he can actually get earlier thanks to the better BaB of the fighter), his saves go up a bit (reflex remains horrible), he loses a feat, a weapon training level, and an armor training level, but gets back insightful defense (via keen awareness), and can now apply his commanding presence to saves/init/AC in addition to skills. He also misses out on ever getting Armor/Weapon mastery, and some favored class bonuses. It's an interesting trade-off. -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::::: In sum, Kib gets a significant numerical boost in combat fundamentals (more hp and more damage), but becomes less generally defensive (shittier saves, except fort, base AC on BP goes up by one, but loss of insightful defense removes the gains and tactician isn't proficient in heavy armor), and less interesting tactically (fewer feats available for combat options like trip, blind fight, etc, although with the gain of a single teamwork feat that can admittedly be pretty powerful, <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">if </ins>situational), and becomes worse at the not-strictly-combat aspects of his job (diplomacy goes down, perception goes down, etc). That's assuming all the DCs in Pathfinder are roughly on the same scale as in 3.5e, which I don't really know enough about. If he goes the Field Marshall route, still (which he can actually get earlier thanks to the better BaB of the fighter), his saves go up a bit (reflex remains horrible), he loses a feat, a weapon training level, and an armor training level, but gets back insightful defense (via keen awareness), and can now apply his commanding presence to saves/init/AC in addition to skills. He also misses out on ever getting Armor/Weapon mastery, and some favored class bonuses. It's an interesting trade-off. -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Putting this back in after edit kill: [[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]] 15:58, 24 January 2013 (EST)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Putting this back in after edit kill: [[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]] 15:58, 24 January 2013 (EST)</div></td></tr>
</table>Slitherrrhttps://wiki.memphisgamers.com/index.php?title=Talk:Germain%27s_Character_Sheet&diff=13761&oldid=prevSlitherrr at 22:27, 25 January 20132013-01-25T22:27:59Z<p></p>
<table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface">
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<tr class="diff-title" lang="en">
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 22:27, 25 January 2013</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l7">Line 7:</td>
<td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 7:</td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::: It is interesting, I was looking at it and it most likely looks like PF fighter (tactician archetype) fits Kib's ORIGINAL intent much better than the current prof/fighter/field marshall thing does, although it doesn't necessarily fit what he has become over the course (very skill-heavy beefy type with well-rounded defenses), since his total skill points will likely drop below the point at which skill consolidation will make up for it. I might do this conversion just for the exercise and the sheer curiosity. -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::: It is interesting, I was looking at it and it most likely looks like PF fighter (tactician archetype) fits Kib's ORIGINAL intent much better than the current prof/fighter/field marshall thing does, although it doesn't necessarily fit what he has become over the course (very skill-heavy beefy type with well-rounded defenses), since his total skill points will likely drop below the point at which skill consolidation will make up for it. I might do this conversion just for the exercise and the sheer curiosity. -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::::: You'd be surprised. It's possible, since I suppose you'd be using a lot of your Favored Class level bonuses for skills or CMD defense instead of HP, so maybe. The Toughness feat is actually not sucky anymore (+HD instead of +3), and everyone is going to end up with more feats. Tactically, there are some wins and losses for Kib in the switch from complex maneuver rules to the CMB/CMD but overall better, especially from a pacing PoV. Also dropping Professional gains some more hit point from the HD upgrade. I think Field Marshal could probably be ported over to PF directly, but if someone WAS going to remake them for PF, it might be interesting to make them more modular and bring over the class trait menu mechanic from things like rogue/gunslinger/etc. Let them build more crafted AoEs. I think Dragoman is another class ripe for this sort of treatment. -gm </div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::::: You'd be surprised. It's possible, since I suppose you'd be using a lot of your Favored Class level bonuses for skills or CMD defense instead of HP, so maybe. The Toughness feat is actually not sucky anymore (+HD instead of +3), and everyone is going to end up with more feats. Tactically, there are some wins and losses for Kib in the switch from complex maneuver rules to the CMB/CMD but overall better, especially from a pacing PoV. Also dropping Professional gains some more hit point from the HD upgrade. I think Field Marshal could probably be ported over to PF directly, but if someone WAS going to remake them for PF, it might be interesting to make them more modular and bring over the class trait menu mechanic from things like rogue/gunslinger/etc. Let them build more crafted AoEs. I think Dragoman is another class ripe for this sort of treatment. -gm </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">:::::::: Ok, did the calculations. The skills actually come up interestingly--assuming I level Fighter only (tactician archetype) all my best skills go down by some amount (thanks to loss in synergy bonuses), which can be made up for somewhat by taking the skill focus racial trait (which will be like getting two "free" skill focus feats, with another coming at level 16). All but my top four skills remain unchanged, or go up by a point. I gain three stat points (current total comes to 19, so I can gain a point in something 12 or less, which probably means charisma, and human gets a +2), which could go in int for more skills, or anything else for some other effect. This would allow me to increase my non-focused skills, but wouldn't have much effect on my top skills unless I chose Charisma for the +2. My AC goes down by three (no insightful defense). I get the same number of feats, but some of the Pathfinder stuff require more feats to get the same effect I have (I have to go to Greater trip in order to get the same effect as Imp Trip, for example). My saves TANK--without the improved Professional progression, I go from being pretty great save-wise to essentially only having decent fort, with no real way to make it up in feats unless I give up some combat ability. My BaB goes up two points, though, and I can get +1 attack/damage with a class of weapons. The tactician main ability is pretty cool--apply a teamwork feat that I choose to someone else within 30 feat some number of times per day. I lose a lot of other synergy with Int, though.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">:::::::: In sum, Kib gets a significant numerical boost in combat fundamentals (more hp and more damage), but becomes less generally defensive (shittier saves, except fort, base AC on BP goes up by one, but loss of insightful defense removes the gains and tactician isn't proficient in heavy armor), and less interesting tactically (fewer feats available for combat options like trip, blind fight, etc, although with the gain of a single teamwork feat that can admittedly be pretty powerful, albeit situational), and becomes worse at the not-strictly-combat aspects of his job (diplomacy goes down, perception goes down, etc). That's assuming all the DCs in Pathfinder are roughly on the same scale as in 3.5e, which I don't really know enough about. If he goes the Field Marshall route, still (which he can actually get earlier thanks to the better BaB of the fighter), his saves go up a bit (reflex remains horrible), he loses a feat, a weapon training level, and an armor training level, but gets back insightful defense (via keen awareness), and can now apply his commanding presence to saves/init/AC in addition to skills. He also misses out on ever getting Armor/Weapon mastery, and some favored class bonuses. It's an interesting trade-off. -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Putting this back in after edit kill: [[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]] 15:58, 24 January 2013 (EST)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Putting this back in after edit kill: [[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]] 15:58, 24 January 2013 (EST)</div></td></tr>
</table>Slitherrr