Talk:Professional (Pathfinder) - Revision history

https://wiki.memphisgamers.com/index.php?action=history&feed=atom&title=Talk%3AProfessional_%28Pathfinder%29 Talk:Professional (Pathfinder) - Revision history 2026-06-21T00:58:38Z Revision history for this page on the wiki MediaWiki 1.39.2 https://wiki.memphisgamers.com/index.php?title=Talk:Professional_(Pathfinder)&diff=16688&oldid=prev Slitherrr at 02:08, 12 July 2015 2015-07-12T02:08:35Z

<p></p> <a href="https://wiki.memphisgamers.com/index.php?title=Talk:Professional_(Pathfinder)&diff=16688&oldid=14016">Show changes</a>

Slitherrr https://wiki.memphisgamers.com/index.php?title=Talk:Professional_(Pathfinder)&diff=14016&oldid=prev Slitherrr at 02:35, 2 March 2013 2013-03-02T02:35:22Z

<p></p> <table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface"> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <tr class="diff-title" lang="en"> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 02:35, 2 March 2013</td> </tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l43">Line 43:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 43:</td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::: Geeze, that guy gets a cohort at CL-1 and a cohort at CL, AND another NPC-quality follower at CL for random stuff. Crazy. -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::: Geeze, that guy gets a cohort at CL-1 and a cohort at CL, AND another NPC-quality follower at CL for random stuff. Crazy. -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::: I think you read wrong. As I read it, he gets one cohort at CL-1 (upgraded to CL at lvl 10) and a second NPC "cohort" at the same level. Given what Jones said about organized play, that may well be broken in some games. Not sure about Tana, but Egg frequently disobeys orders, refuses to go on adventurers, and acts completely independently of me, so I don't think that holds for us. He's at least 50% GM vehicle, and he really only maps back to me because everything he does (good or ill) is something I did! Hell, we could probably have 6 cohorts each and Jones would just make them all 10.9% reliable (1 - (0.891 ^ 6) ~= .50) --[[User:Msallen|Msallen]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::: I think you read wrong. As I read it, he gets one cohort at CL-1 (upgraded to CL at lvl 10) and a second NPC "cohort" at the same level. Given what Jones said about organized play, that may well be broken in some games. Not sure about Tana, but Egg frequently disobeys orders, refuses to go on adventurers, and acts completely independently of me, so I don't think that holds for us. He's at least 50% GM vehicle, and he really only maps back to me because everything he does (good or ill) is something I did! Hell, we could probably have 6 cohorts each and Jones would just make them all 10.9% reliable (1 - (0.891 ^ 6) ~= .50) --[[User:Msallen|Msallen]]</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::: "He can recruit a cohort up to one level lower than himself. At 10th level, he can recruit a cohort of the same level as himself." That's completely ambiguous, really. Both of those statements could be adding cohorts just as easily as it could be modifying his ability to recruit a single cohort. -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::: "He can recruit a cohort up to one level lower than himself. At 10th level, he can recruit a cohort of the same level as himself." That's completely ambiguous, really. Both of those statements could be adding cohorts just as easily as it could be modifying his ability to recruit a single cohort<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">. But I completely agree that your reading is much more sensible</ins>.-[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>So, rogue first, I'd say sneak attack/trap sense is probably better than subset of general feats, rogue talents are strictly better than a subset of rogue talents, and they are break even on all other stats. This is the big case against the current prof power level. Compared with fighter, again, all combat feats is strictly/significantly better than some general feats, weapon/armor training is probably eqivalent to a subset of rogue talents (although I may be way off there), and the hp/bab are a wash. Bard and inquisitor are harder to compare, but I feel like their spells/specials are somewhat better than professional as a gut evaluation, and I think 1 extra save is better than 2 skill points.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>So, rogue first, I'd say sneak attack/trap sense is probably better than subset of general feats, rogue talents are strictly better than a subset of rogue talents, and they are break even on all other stats. This is the big case against the current prof power level. Compared with fighter, again, all combat feats is strictly/significantly better than some general feats, weapon/armor training is probably eqivalent to a subset of rogue talents (although I may be way off there), and the hp/bab are a wash. Bard and inquisitor are harder to compare, but I feel like their spells/specials are somewhat better than professional as a gut evaluation, and I think 1 extra save is better than 2 skill points.</div></td></tr> </table>

Slitherrr https://wiki.memphisgamers.com/index.php?title=Talk:Professional_(Pathfinder)&diff=14015&oldid=prev Slitherrr at 02:34, 2 March 2013 2013-03-02T02:34:36Z

<p></p> <table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface"> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <tr class="diff-title" lang="en"> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 02:34, 2 March 2013</td> </tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l43">Line 43:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 43:</td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::: Geeze, that guy gets a cohort at CL-1 and a cohort at CL, AND another NPC-quality follower at CL for random stuff. Crazy. -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::: Geeze, that guy gets a cohort at CL-1 and a cohort at CL, AND another NPC-quality follower at CL for random stuff. Crazy. -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::: I think you read wrong. As I read it, he gets one cohort at CL-1 (upgraded to CL at lvl 10) and a second NPC "cohort" at the same level. Given what Jones said about organized play, that may well be broken in some games. Not sure about Tana, but Egg frequently disobeys orders, refuses to go on adventurers, and acts completely independently of me, so I don't think that holds for us. He's at least 50% GM vehicle, and he really only maps back to me because everything he does (good or ill) is something I did! Hell, we could probably have 6 cohorts each and Jones would just make them all 10.9% reliable (1 - (0.891 ^ 6) ~= .50) --[[User:Msallen|Msallen]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::: I think you read wrong. As I read it, he gets one cohort at CL-1 (upgraded to CL at lvl 10) and a second NPC "cohort" at the same level. Given what Jones said about organized play, that may well be broken in some games. Not sure about Tana, but Egg frequently disobeys orders, refuses to go on adventurers, and acts completely independently of me, so I don't think that holds for us. He's at least 50% GM vehicle, and he really only maps back to me because everything he does (good or ill) is something I did! Hell, we could probably have 6 cohorts each and Jones would just make them all 10.9% reliable (1 - (0.891 ^ 6) ~= .50) --[[User:Msallen|Msallen]]</div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">:::::: "He can recruit a cohort up to one level lower than himself. At 10th level, he can recruit a cohort of the same level as himself." That's completely ambiguous, really. Both of those statements could be adding cohorts just as easily as it could be modifying his ability to recruit a single cohort. -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]</ins></div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>So, rogue first, I'd say sneak attack/trap sense is probably better than subset of general feats, rogue talents are strictly better than a subset of rogue talents, and they are break even on all other stats. This is the big case against the current prof power level. Compared with fighter, again, all combat feats is strictly/significantly better than some general feats, weapon/armor training is probably eqivalent to a subset of rogue talents (although I may be way off there), and the hp/bab are a wash. Bard and inquisitor are harder to compare, but I feel like their spells/specials are somewhat better than professional as a gut evaluation, and I think 1 extra save is better than 2 skill points.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>So, rogue first, I'd say sneak attack/trap sense is probably better than subset of general feats, rogue talents are strictly better than a subset of rogue talents, and they are break even on all other stats. This is the big case against the current prof power level. Compared with fighter, again, all combat feats is strictly/significantly better than some general feats, weapon/armor training is probably eqivalent to a subset of rogue talents (although I may be way off there), and the hp/bab are a wash. Bard and inquisitor are harder to compare, but I feel like their spells/specials are somewhat better than professional as a gut evaluation, and I think 1 extra save is better than 2 skill points.</div></td></tr> </table>

Slitherrr https://wiki.memphisgamers.com/index.php?title=Talk:Professional_(Pathfinder)&diff=14014&oldid=prev Msallen at 15:57, 1 March 2013 2013-03-01T15:57:30Z

<p></p> <table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface"> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <tr class="diff-title" lang="en"> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 15:57, 1 March 2013</td> </tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l42">Line 42:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 42:</td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::: In case you missed it in the Germain talk page, the [http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/n-r/noble-scion Noble Scion] has a 2nd cohort leadership buff (albeit with NPC classes only), as well as a cohort level buff. Not sure if that is an example of what we can do for Prof or a strike against having the prof (there are plenty of prestige classes that duplicate base classess), but it's definitely interesting and relevant. --[[User:Msallen|Msallen]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::: In case you missed it in the Germain talk page, the [http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/n-r/noble-scion Noble Scion] has a 2nd cohort leadership buff (albeit with NPC classes only), as well as a cohort level buff. Not sure if that is an example of what we can do for Prof or a strike against having the prof (there are plenty of prestige classes that duplicate base classess), but it's definitely interesting and relevant. --[[User:Msallen|Msallen]]</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::: Geeze, that guy gets a cohort at CL-1 and a cohort at CL, AND another NPC-quality follower at CL for random stuff. Crazy. -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::: Geeze, that guy gets a cohort at CL-1 and a cohort at CL, AND another NPC-quality follower at CL for random stuff. Crazy. -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]</div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">::::: I think you read wrong. As I read it, he gets one cohort at CL-1 (upgraded to CL at lvl 10) and a second NPC "cohort" at the same level. Given what Jones said about organized play, that may well be broken in some games. Not sure about Tana, but Egg frequently disobeys orders, refuses to go on adventurers, and acts completely independently of me, so I don't think that holds for us. He's at least 50% GM vehicle, and he really only maps back to me because everything he does (good or ill) is something I did! Hell, we could probably have 6 cohorts each and Jones would just make them all 10.9% reliable (1 - (0.891 ^ 6) ~= .50) --[[User:Msallen|Msallen]]</ins></div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>So, rogue first, I'd say sneak attack/trap sense is probably better than subset of general feats, rogue talents are strictly better than a subset of rogue talents, and they are break even on all other stats. This is the big case against the current prof power level. Compared with fighter, again, all combat feats is strictly/significantly better than some general feats, weapon/armor training is probably eqivalent to a subset of rogue talents (although I may be way off there), and the hp/bab are a wash. Bard and inquisitor are harder to compare, but I feel like their spells/specials are somewhat better than professional as a gut evaluation, and I think 1 extra save is better than 2 skill points.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>So, rogue first, I'd say sneak attack/trap sense is probably better than subset of general feats, rogue talents are strictly better than a subset of rogue talents, and they are break even on all other stats. This is the big case against the current prof power level. Compared with fighter, again, all combat feats is strictly/significantly better than some general feats, weapon/armor training is probably eqivalent to a subset of rogue talents (although I may be way off there), and the hp/bab are a wash. Bard and inquisitor are harder to compare, but I feel like their spells/specials are somewhat better than professional as a gut evaluation, and I think 1 extra save is better than 2 skill points.</div></td></tr> </table>

Msallen https://wiki.memphisgamers.com/index.php?title=Talk:Professional_(Pathfinder)&diff=14013&oldid=prev Slitherrr at 02:07, 1 March 2013 2013-03-01T02:07:52Z

<p></p> <table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface"> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <tr class="diff-title" lang="en"> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 02:07, 1 March 2013</td> </tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l41">Line 41:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 41:</td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:: Hah! My analysis was objective and righteous, as always! This was a pretty constructive conversation/experience for me re: learning pathfinder. Now that I know the system a lot better, though, I agree that the professional isn't really necessary, or at least unique as it stands now. From my perspective, what we tried to accomplish for d20 was a skill-based class like the rogue that wasn't so frail and traded DPS for flexibility, and we added the petomancer bit to offset the combat gimpness. Now that rogues have a HP boost and a number of skill- and defense-based talents, it just isn't a unique class unless we take it in another direction like teamwork, petomancer++, and/or multiclassing. As it stands now, it just looks like a gimpy rogue, which was the point I was trying to make. I have the day off so I'm going to make a second Germain version without professional, and I think it's going to be very very close to what he currently is in d20. --[[User:Msallen|Msallen]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:: Hah! My analysis was objective and righteous, as always! This was a pretty constructive conversation/experience for me re: learning pathfinder. Now that I know the system a lot better, though, I agree that the professional isn't really necessary, or at least unique as it stands now. From my perspective, what we tried to accomplish for d20 was a skill-based class like the rogue that wasn't so frail and traded DPS for flexibility, and we added the petomancer bit to offset the combat gimpness. Now that rogues have a HP boost and a number of skill- and defense-based talents, it just isn't a unique class unless we take it in another direction like teamwork, petomancer++, and/or multiclassing. As it stands now, it just looks like a gimpy rogue, which was the point I was trying to make. I have the day off so I'm going to make a second Germain version without professional, and I think it's going to be very very close to what he currently is in d20. --[[User:Msallen|Msallen]]</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::: In case you missed it in the Germain talk page, the [http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/n-r/noble-scion Noble Scion] has a 2nd cohort leadership buff (albeit with NPC classes only), as well as a cohort level buff. Not sure if that is an example of what we can do for Prof or a strike against having the prof (there are plenty of prestige classes that duplicate base classess), but it's definitely interesting and relevant. --[[User:Msallen|Msallen]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::: In case you missed it in the Germain talk page, the [http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/n-r/noble-scion Noble Scion] has a 2nd cohort leadership buff (albeit with NPC classes only), as well as a cohort level buff. Not sure if that is an example of what we can do for Prof or a strike against having the prof (there are plenty of prestige classes that duplicate base classess), but it's definitely interesting and relevant. --[[User:Msallen|Msallen]]</div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">:::: Geeze, that guy gets a cohort at CL-1 and a cohort at CL, AND another NPC-quality follower at CL for random stuff. Crazy. -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]</ins></div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>So, rogue first, I'd say sneak attack/trap sense is probably better than subset of general feats, rogue talents are strictly better than a subset of rogue talents, and they are break even on all other stats. This is the big case against the current prof power level. Compared with fighter, again, all combat feats is strictly/significantly better than some general feats, weapon/armor training is probably eqivalent to a subset of rogue talents (although I may be way off there), and the hp/bab are a wash. Bard and inquisitor are harder to compare, but I feel like their spells/specials are somewhat better than professional as a gut evaluation, and I think 1 extra save is better than 2 skill points.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>So, rogue first, I'd say sneak attack/trap sense is probably better than subset of general feats, rogue talents are strictly better than a subset of rogue talents, and they are break even on all other stats. This is the big case against the current prof power level. Compared with fighter, again, all combat feats is strictly/significantly better than some general feats, weapon/armor training is probably eqivalent to a subset of rogue talents (although I may be way off there), and the hp/bab are a wash. Bard and inquisitor are harder to compare, but I feel like their spells/specials are somewhat better than professional as a gut evaluation, and I think 1 extra save is better than 2 skill points.</div></td></tr> </table>

Slitherrr https://wiki.memphisgamers.com/index.php?title=Talk:Professional_(Pathfinder)&diff=14009&oldid=prev Msallen at 22:36, 28 February 2013 2013-02-28T22:36:45Z

<p></p> <table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface"> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <tr class="diff-title" lang="en"> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 22:36, 28 February 2013</td> </tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l40">Line 40:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 40:</td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:I feel like it would actually be pretty fun to create a class whose only power is from synergizing with other teammates, but I don't think the Professional is that class. As it stands, a Professional who takes some teamwork feats and then uses his cohorts to pull them off is actually looking at some interesting play, and can still be effective in the combat that rules the lives of all DnD players. -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:I feel like it would actually be pretty fun to create a class whose only power is from synergizing with other teammates, but I don't think the Professional is that class. As it stands, a Professional who takes some teamwork feats and then uses his cohorts to pull them off is actually looking at some interesting play, and can still be effective in the combat that rules the lives of all DnD players. -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:: Hah! My analysis was objective and righteous, as always! This was a pretty constructive conversation/experience for me re: learning pathfinder. Now that I know the system a lot better, though, I agree that the professional isn't really necessary, or at least unique as it stands now. From my perspective, what we tried to accomplish for d20 was a skill-based class like the rogue that wasn't so frail and traded DPS for flexibility, and we added the petomancer bit to offset the combat gimpness. Now that rogues have a HP boost and a number of skill- and defense-based talents, it just isn't a unique class unless we take it in another direction like teamwork, petomancer++, and/or multiclassing. As it stands now, it just looks like a gimpy rogue, which was the point I was trying to make. I have the day off so I'm going to make a second Germain version without professional, and I think it's going to be very very close to what he currently is in d20. --[[User:Msallen|Msallen]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:: Hah! My analysis was objective and righteous, as always! This was a pretty constructive conversation/experience for me re: learning pathfinder. Now that I know the system a lot better, though, I agree that the professional isn't really necessary, or at least unique as it stands now. From my perspective, what we tried to accomplish for d20 was a skill-based class like the rogue that wasn't so frail and traded DPS for flexibility, and we added the petomancer bit to offset the combat gimpness. Now that rogues have a HP boost and a number of skill- and defense-based talents, it just isn't a unique class unless we take it in another direction like teamwork, petomancer++, and/or multiclassing. As it stands now, it just looks like a gimpy rogue, which was the point I was trying to make. I have the day off so I'm going to make a second Germain version without professional, and I think it's going to be very very close to what he currently is in d20. --[[User:Msallen|Msallen]]</div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">::: In case you missed it in the Germain talk page, the [http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/n-r/noble-scion Noble Scion] has a 2nd cohort leadership buff (albeit with NPC classes only), as well as a cohort level buff. Not sure if that is an example of what we can do for Prof or a strike against having the prof (there are plenty of prestige classes that duplicate base classess), but it's definitely interesting and relevant. --[[User:Msallen|Msallen]]</ins></div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>So, rogue first, I'd say sneak attack/trap sense is probably better than subset of general feats, rogue talents are strictly better than a subset of rogue talents, and they are break even on all other stats. This is the big case against the current prof power level. Compared with fighter, again, all combat feats is strictly/significantly better than some general feats, weapon/armor training is probably eqivalent to a subset of rogue talents (although I may be way off there), and the hp/bab are a wash. Bard and inquisitor are harder to compare, but I feel like their spells/specials are somewhat better than professional as a gut evaluation, and I think 1 extra save is better than 2 skill points.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>So, rogue first, I'd say sneak attack/trap sense is probably better than subset of general feats, rogue talents are strictly better than a subset of rogue talents, and they are break even on all other stats. This is the big case against the current prof power level. Compared with fighter, again, all combat feats is strictly/significantly better than some general feats, weapon/armor training is probably eqivalent to a subset of rogue talents (although I may be way off there), and the hp/bab are a wash. Bard and inquisitor are harder to compare, but I feel like their spells/specials are somewhat better than professional as a gut evaluation, and I think 1 extra save is better than 2 skill points.</div></td></tr> </table>

Msallen https://wiki.memphisgamers.com/index.php?title=Talk:Professional_(Pathfinder)&diff=13999&oldid=prev Slitherrr at 18:25, 28 February 2013 2013-02-28T18:25:27Z

<p></p> <table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface"> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <tr class="diff-title" lang="en"> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 18:25, 28 February 2013</td> </tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l94">Line 94:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 94:</td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::: Some ideas:</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::: Some ideas:</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*Humans: +1/3 to Leadership OR +1/6 to bonus given by Aid Another</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*Humans: +1/3 to Leadership OR +1/6 to bonus given by Aid Another</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*Gnomes: +1 to Appraise when evaluating the abilities of magical items <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">OR +1 </del>to Knowledge(Arcana) when evaluating the abilities of <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">magically constructed enemies</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*Gnomes: +1 to Appraise when evaluating the abilities of magical items <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">and </ins>to Knowledge(Arcana)<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">/Spellcraft </ins>when evaluating the abilities of <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">constructs or magical traps OR +1/2 to Craft checks to construct a magical item</ins></div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*Elves: +1 to skill checks related to <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">one </del>of ''False Friend'', ''Honeyed Words'', ''Obfuscate Story'' or ''Steal the Story'' OR +1/6 to bonus offered by Insightful Defense</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*Elves: +1 to skill checks related to <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">any </ins>of ''False Friend'', ''Honeyed Words'', ''Obfuscate Story'' or ''Steal the Story'' OR +1/6 to bonus offered by Insightful Defense</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*Dwarves: +1/3 Will Save OR +1/3 to Leadership</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*Dwarves: +1/3 Will Save OR +1/3 to Leadership</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*Halflings: Knowledge (local) applies to an extra (chosen) locality OR +1 to linguistics checks when conversing in an unknown language</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*Halflings: Knowledge (local) applies to an extra (chosen) locality OR +1 to linguistics checks when conversing in an unknown language</div></td></tr> </table>

Slitherrr https://wiki.memphisgamers.com/index.php?title=Talk:Professional_(Pathfinder)&diff=13998&oldid=prev Slitherrr at 18:22, 28 February 2013 2013-02-28T18:22:36Z

<p></p> <table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface"> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <tr class="diff-title" lang="en"> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 18:22, 28 February 2013</td> </tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l95">Line 95:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 95:</td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*Humans: +1/3 to Leadership OR +1/6 to bonus given by Aid Another</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*Humans: +1/3 to Leadership OR +1/6 to bonus given by Aid Another</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*Gnomes: +1 to Appraise when evaluating the abilities of magical items OR +1 to Knowledge(Arcana) when evaluating the abilities of magically constructed enemies</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*Gnomes: +1 to Appraise when evaluating the abilities of magical items OR +1 to Knowledge(Arcana) when evaluating the abilities of magically constructed enemies</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*Elves: +1 to skill checks related to one of ''False Friend'', ''Honeyed Words'', ''Obfuscate Story'' or ''Steal the Story''</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*Elves: +1 to skill checks related to one of ''False Friend'', ''Honeyed Words'', ''Obfuscate Story'' or ''Steal the Story'' <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">OR +1/6 to bonus offered by Insightful Defense</ins></div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*Dwarves: +1/3 Will Save OR +1/3 to Leadership</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*Dwarves: +1/3 Will Save OR +1/3 to Leadership</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*Halflings: Knowledge (local) applies to an extra (chosen) locality OR +1 to linguistics checks when conversing in an unknown language</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*Halflings: Knowledge (local) applies to an extra (chosen) locality OR +1 to linguistics checks when conversing in an unknown language</div></td></tr> </table>

Slitherrr https://wiki.memphisgamers.com/index.php?title=Talk:Professional_(Pathfinder)&diff=13997&oldid=prev Slitherrr at 16:45, 28 February 2013 2013-02-28T16:45:54Z

<p></p> <table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface"> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <tr class="diff-title" lang="en"> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 16:45, 28 February 2013</td> </tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l92">Line 92:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 92:</td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::: Correction, rogue is also d8 hp. I think we have to give the Prof a lot to justify dropping to d6 IMO. --[[User:Msallen|Msallen]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::: Correction, rogue is also d8 hp. I think we have to give the Prof a lot to justify dropping to d6 IMO. --[[User:Msallen|Msallen]]</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::: Also, the PF SRD has racial alternatives for the Focus Class traits (Human Fighters can choose +1 to UMD against two selected combat maneuvers, for example). Any ideas what that might look like for Professional, or would we rather just use the normal +1sp or +1hp? -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::: Also, the PF SRD has racial alternatives for the Focus Class traits (Human Fighters can choose +1 to UMD against two selected combat maneuvers, for example). Any ideas what that might look like for Professional, or would we rather just use the normal +1sp or +1hp? -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]</div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">::::: Some ideas:</ins></div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*Humans: +1/3 to Leadership OR +1/6 to bonus given by Aid Another</ins></div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*Gnomes: +1 to Appraise when evaluating the abilities of magical items OR +1 to Knowledge(Arcana) when evaluating the abilities of magically constructed enemies</ins></div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*Elves: +1 to skill checks related to one of ''False Friend'', ''Honeyed Words'', ''Obfuscate Story'' or ''Steal the Story''</ins></div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*Dwarves: +1/3 Will Save OR +1/3 to Leadership</ins></div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*Halflings: Knowledge (local) applies to an extra (chosen) locality OR +1 to linguistics checks when conversing in an unknown language</ins></div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Reading a bit, ''slippery mind'' is redundant--''hard to fool'' is strictly better. -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Reading a bit, ''slippery mind'' is redundant--''hard to fool'' is strictly better. -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:That is, ''hard to fool'', advanced version, not regular version. Did Paizo really not realize that they were calling two completely different talents (without any prerequisite relationship) by the same name? -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:That is, ''hard to fool'', advanced version, not regular version. Did Paizo really not realize that they were calling two completely different talents (without any prerequisite relationship) by the same name? -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:: QA is not their strong suit. That's a pretty sad oversight.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:: QA is not their strong suit. That's a pretty sad oversight.</div></td></tr> </table>

Slitherrr https://wiki.memphisgamers.com/index.php?title=Talk:Professional_(Pathfinder)&diff=13973&oldid=prev Msallen at 14:21, 27 February 2013 2013-02-27T14:21:06Z

<p></p> <table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface"> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <tr class="diff-title" lang="en"> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 14:21, 27 February 2013</td> </tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l39">Line 39:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 39:</td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:The Inquisitor and Cavalier are both pretty cool classes in their own right, although they're both "X with some teamwork stuff" rather than "teamwork guy". The Cavalier would even be a great fit for Kib in a lot of ways, although it would emphasize the mounted combat in a way that has up to now come only as an outgrowth of having a horse, and de-emphasize his "Charismatic, Honest-Guy-Face Leader" aspect. I love all the teamwork stuff to death. And I am actually warming up to the "2nd cohort" idea. I would love to see that "-2 on cohort death" rule house-ruled to something more like the familiar rules, though--it's not that I really expect to go killing off Tana any time soon, it's just that an ability with a built-in mechanism for (permanently!) gimping itself is just super-fucking-weird.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:The Inquisitor and Cavalier are both pretty cool classes in their own right, although they're both "X with some teamwork stuff" rather than "teamwork guy". The Cavalier would even be a great fit for Kib in a lot of ways, although it would emphasize the mounted combat in a way that has up to now come only as an outgrowth of having a horse, and de-emphasize his "Charismatic, Honest-Guy-Face Leader" aspect. I love all the teamwork stuff to death. And I am actually warming up to the "2nd cohort" idea. I would love to see that "-2 on cohort death" rule house-ruled to something more like the familiar rules, though--it's not that I really expect to go killing off Tana any time soon, it's just that an ability with a built-in mechanism for (permanently!) gimping itself is just super-fucking-weird.</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:I feel like it would actually be pretty fun to create a class whose only power is from synergizing with other teammates, but I don't think the Professional is that class. As it stands, a Professional who takes some teamwork feats and then uses his cohorts to pull them off is actually looking at some interesting play, and can still be effective in the combat that rules the lives of all DnD players. -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:I feel like it would actually be pretty fun to create a class whose only power is from synergizing with other teammates, but I don't think the Professional is that class. As it stands, a Professional who takes some teamwork feats and then uses his cohorts to pull them off is actually looking at some interesting play, and can still be effective in the combat that rules the lives of all DnD players. -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">:: Hah! My analysis was objective and righteous, as always! This was a pretty constructive conversation/experience for me re: learning pathfinder. Now that I know the system a lot better, though, I agree that the professional isn't really necessary, or at least unique as it stands now. From my perspective, what we tried to accomplish for d20 was a skill-based class like the rogue that wasn't so frail and traded DPS for flexibility, and we added the petomancer bit to offset the combat gimpness. Now that rogues have a HP boost and a number of skill- and defense-based talents, it just isn't a unique class unless we take it in another direction like teamwork, petomancer++, and/or multiclassing. As it stands now, it just looks like a gimpy rogue, which was the point I was trying to make. I have the day off so I'm going to make a second Germain version without professional, and I think it's going to be very very close to what he currently is in d20. --[[User:Msallen|Msallen]]</ins></div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>So, rogue first, I'd say sneak attack/trap sense is probably better than subset of general feats, rogue talents are strictly better than a subset of rogue talents, and they are break even on all other stats. This is the big case against the current prof power level. Compared with fighter, again, all combat feats is strictly/significantly better than some general feats, weapon/armor training is probably eqivalent to a subset of rogue talents (although I may be way off there), and the hp/bab are a wash. Bard and inquisitor are harder to compare, but I feel like their spells/specials are somewhat better than professional as a gut evaluation, and I think 1 extra save is better than 2 skill points.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>So, rogue first, I'd say sneak attack/trap sense is probably better than subset of general feats, rogue talents are strictly better than a subset of rogue talents, and they are break even on all other stats. This is the big case against the current prof power level. Compared with fighter, again, all combat feats is strictly/significantly better than some general feats, weapon/armor training is probably eqivalent to a subset of rogue talents (although I may be way off there), and the hp/bab are a wash. Bard and inquisitor are harder to compare, but I feel like their spells/specials are somewhat better than professional as a gut evaluation, and I think 1 extra save is better than 2 skill points.</div></td></tr> </table>

Msallen