Talk:Rhino's Rush - Revision history

Slitherrr at 21:10, 28 June 2011

2011-06-28T21:10:33Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:10, 28 June 2011
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	:Well, again, Rhino's Rush cast + charge next round ends up being functionally exactly the same as a charge + attack, except that the former is easier to get away from undamaged. If it's still standard action casting time and 1 round duration, there is absolutely never a reason to use the spell. Ever. I agree that making it a swift action is stupid, though, but that's why I favor giving it a longer duration with a discharge effect (i.e., lasts up to 1rd/level (max 5), or until the first charge attempted by the character, whichever comes first) -[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]]		:Well, again, Rhino's Rush cast + charge next round ends up being functionally exactly the same as a charge + attack, except that the former is easier to get away from undamaged. If it's still standard action casting time and 1 round duration, there is absolutely never a reason to use the spell. Ever. I agree that making it a swift action is stupid, though, but that's why I favor giving it a longer duration with a discharge effect (i.e., lasts up to 1rd/level (max 5), or until the first charge attempted by the character, whichever comes first) -[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]]
	::The reason to cast it is so that the Pally stays with the group for the first round of combat, rather than rushing in to the fray and going out of range of the first round buffs. Then, he can rush in on the second round after being blessed, hastened, good hoped, etc. and the rest of the party is ready to go in with you. Mathematically it's identical, but I think sometimes situation can transcend the calculus. -gm		::The reason to cast it is so that the Pally stays with the group for the first round of combat, rather than rushing in to the fray and going out of range of the first round buffs. Then, he can rush in on the second round after being blessed, hastened, good hoped, etc. and the rest of the party is ready to go in with you. Mathematically it's identical, but I think sometimes situation can transcend the calculus. -gm
			::Oh, in that case, the spell's about perfect, then. -[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]]


	As I've said before, I'm not against spell compendium spells - especially utility spells, buffs, and specialty spells - but I'm generally of the mind that they got damage dealing spells right the first time around and think that most of the ones they added in SC are often wildly out of flavor and balance.		As I've said before, I'm not against spell compendium spells - especially utility spells, buffs, and specialty spells - but I'm generally of the mind that they got damage dealing spells right the first time around and think that most of the ones they added in SC are often wildly out of flavor and balance.

Detarame at 20:14, 28 June 2011

2011-06-28T20:14:35Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:14, 28 June 2011
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	ALSO: For balance, I'm keeping this as a standard rather than swift action. I think a great number of the Spell Compendium spells are entirely out of balance with their PHB peers. (Let's see, level one spell.. 10 points of healing, a +2 to AC, or maybe 60 damage. One of these things is not like the other.) In my mind, the PitA and Risk Cost of casting Rhino's Rush is the only balancing factor. High Risk, High Reward is the only way I can justify a level one spell putting out that much ouch. By a way of further compare, the's a spell from Swords and Sorcery (White Wolfs d20 family) that gives a weapon +1 threat range, and that's level 2 spell. I'd argue this is at least as good as that one, though its a strange comparison.		ALSO: For balance, I'm keeping this as a standard rather than swift action. I think a great number of the Spell Compendium spells are entirely out of balance with their PHB peers. (Let's see, level one spell.. 10 points of healing, a +2 to AC, or maybe 60 damage. One of these things is not like the other.) In my mind, the PitA and Risk Cost of casting Rhino's Rush is the only balancing factor. High Risk, High Reward is the only way I can justify a level one spell putting out that much ouch. By a way of further compare, the's a spell from Swords and Sorcery (White Wolfs d20 family) that gives a weapon +1 threat range, and that's level 2 spell. I'd argue this is at least as good as that one, though its a strange comparison.
	:Well, again, Rhino's Rush cast + charge next round ends up being functionally exactly the same as a charge + attack, except that the former is easier to get away from undamaged. If it's still standard action casting time and 1 round duration, there is absolutely never a reason to use the spell. Ever. I agree that making it a swift action is stupid, though, but that's why I favor giving it a longer duration with a discharge effect (i.e., lasts up to 1rd/level (max 5), or until the first charge attempted by the character, whichever comes first) -[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]]		:Well, again, Rhino's Rush cast + charge next round ends up being functionally exactly the same as a charge + attack, except that the former is easier to get away from undamaged. If it's still standard action casting time and 1 round duration, there is absolutely never a reason to use the spell. Ever. I agree that making it a swift action is stupid, though, but that's why I favor giving it a longer duration with a discharge effect (i.e., lasts up to 1rd/level (max 5), or until the first charge attempted by the character, whichever comes first) -[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]]
			::The reason to cast it is so that the Pally stays with the group for the first round of combat, rather than rushing in to the fray and going out of range of the first round buffs. Then, he can rush in on the second round after being blessed, hastened, good hoped, etc. and the rest of the party is ready to go in with you. Mathematically it's identical, but I think sometimes situation can transcend the calculus. -gm

	As I've said before, I'm not against spell compendium spells - especially utility spells, buffs, and specialty spells - but I'm generally of the mind that they got damage dealing spells right the first time around and think that most of the ones they added in SC are often wildly out of flavor and balance.		As I've said before, I'm not against spell compendium spells - especially utility spells, buffs, and specialty spells - but I'm generally of the mind that they got damage dealing spells right the first time around and think that most of the ones they added in SC are often wildly out of flavor and balance.

Slitherrr at 19:56, 28 June 2011

2011-06-28T19:56:56Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:56, 28 June 2011
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	ALSO: For balance, I'm keeping this as a standard rather than swift action. I think a great number of the Spell Compendium spells are entirely out of balance with their PHB peers. (Let's see, level one spell.. 10 points of healing, a +2 to AC, or maybe 60 damage. One of these things is not like the other.) In my mind, the PitA and Risk Cost of casting Rhino's Rush is the only balancing factor. High Risk, High Reward is the only way I can justify a level one spell putting out that much ouch. By a way of further compare, the's a spell from Swords and Sorcery (White Wolfs d20 family) that gives a weapon +1 threat range, and that's level 2 spell. I'd argue this is at least as good as that one, though its a strange comparison.		ALSO: For balance, I'm keeping this as a standard rather than swift action. I think a great number of the Spell Compendium spells are entirely out of balance with their PHB peers. (Let's see, level one spell.. 10 points of healing, a +2 to AC, or maybe 60 damage. One of these things is not like the other.) In my mind, the PitA and Risk Cost of casting Rhino's Rush is the only balancing factor. High Risk, High Reward is the only way I can justify a level one spell putting out that much ouch. By a way of further compare, the's a spell from Swords and Sorcery (White Wolfs d20 family) that gives a weapon +1 threat range, and that's level 2 spell. I'd argue this is at least as good as that one, though its a strange comparison.
			:Well, again, Rhino's Rush cast + charge next round ends up being functionally exactly the same as a charge + attack, except that the former is easier to get away from undamaged. If it's still standard action casting time and 1 round duration, there is absolutely never a reason to use the spell. Ever. I agree that making it a swift action is stupid, though, but that's why I favor giving it a longer duration with a discharge effect (i.e., lasts up to 1rd/level (max 5), or until the first charge attempted by the character, whichever comes first) -[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]]

	As I've said before, I'm not against spell compendium spells - especially utility spells, buffs, and specialty spells - but I'm generally of the mind that they got damage dealing spells right the first time around and think that most of the ones they added in SC are often wildly out of flavor and balance.		As I've said before, I'm not against spell compendium spells - especially utility spells, buffs, and specialty spells - but I'm generally of the mind that they got damage dealing spells right the first time around and think that most of the ones they added in SC are often wildly out of flavor and balance.

Detarame at 18:14, 28 June 2011

2011-06-28T18:14:58Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:14, 28 June 2011
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	We are on the same page, and were even moreso than we thought. The rules for this, as per SRD norm, are spread out over three different entries. But, basically, when I was talking about smite damage, I was thinking his bonus +2d6 Good damage from Improved Smite or whatever feat he got. The Smite Damage, since it is an unnamed flat modifier, would double for this and a crit.		ALSO: For balance, I'm keeping this as a standard rather than swift action. I think a great number of the Spell Compendium spells are entirely out of balance with their PHB peers. (Let's see, level one spell.. 10 points of healing, a +2 to AC, or maybe 60 damage. One of these things is not like the other.) In my mind, the PitA and Risk Cost of casting Rhino's Rush is the only balancing factor. High Risk, High Reward is the only way I can justify a level one spell putting out that much ouch. By a way of further compare, the's a spell from Swords and Sorcery (White Wolfs d20 family) that gives a weapon +1 threat range, and that's level 2 spell. I'd argue this is at least as good as that one, though its a strange comparison.

			As I've said before, I'm not against spell compendium spells - especially utility spells, buffs, and specialty spells - but I'm generally of the mind that they got damage dealing spells right the first time around and think that most of the ones they added in SC are often wildly out of flavor and balance.

			Rules wise, we are on the same page, and were even moreso than we thought. The rules for this, as per SRD norm, are spread out over three different entries. But, basically, when I was talking about smite damage, I was thinking his bonus +2d6 Good damage from Improved Smite or whatever feat he got. The Smite Damage, since it is an unnamed flat modifier, would double for this and a crit.

Detarame at 18:09, 28 June 2011

2011-06-28T18:09:06Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:09, 28 June 2011
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			We are on the same page, and were even moreso than we thought. The rules for this, as per SRD norm, are spread out over three different entries. But, basically, when I was talking about smite damage, I was thinking his bonus +2d6 Good damage from Improved Smite or whatever feat he got. The Smite Damage, since it is an unnamed flat modifier, would double for this and a crit.


			Does My Damage Double?
			* Is it weapon dice damage? YES
			* Is it weapon damage, from any source? YES
			* Is it non-weapon, diced damage, such as GOOD, FIRE, SNEAK ATTACK, or NEGATIVE? NO

			- Look about right? This should not be errata but clarification of the rules as they are in the book. Pathfinder, also as usual, has kept the same mechanics but mostly clarified it and brought it into the same place.-gm

	== Swift Action? ==		== Swift Action? ==
	<div style="float:right; border:1px solid black;">		<div style="float:right; border:1px solid black;">

Slitherrr at 17:19, 28 June 2011

2011-06-28T17:19:06Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:19, 28 June 2011
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	:::::: Sneak Attack damage is specifically excluded from criticals " Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied." -gm		:::::: Sneak Attack damage is specifically excluded from criticals " Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied." -gm
	::::::: I was thinking also lance, Spirited Charge, and the like all give you more chance at multiples, so they'd just linear add more layers if you Rhino Rush'd and/or crit'd. We're on the same page there, yeah. -[[User:Mattie\|Mattie]]		::::::: I was thinking also lance, Spirited Charge, and the like all give you more chance at multiples, so they'd just linear add more layers if you Rhino Rush'd and/or crit'd. We're on the same page there, yeah. -[[User:Mattie\|Mattie]]
			:::::::: c.f. more analysis below re: Spirited Charge + Lance -[[User:Slitherrr\|Slitherrr]]

	== Some need ==		== Some need ==

Mattie: clarifying my view of srd

2011-06-28T15:59:18Z

clarifying my view of srd

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:59, 28 June 2011
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	Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied.</pre></blockquote>		Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied.</pre></blockquote>
	: I don't understand? Under the section entitled "multiplying damage," there is the quote "Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied." You've quoted it, too, actually. It says that under critical hits and multiplying damage both. I'm not so mathy sometimes, can you better explain how this is not the same as what I said above? Extra Damage Dice would be things like Flaming, Good, Lawful, etc. -gm		::::: I don't understand? Under the section entitled "multiplying damage," there is the quote "Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied." You've quoted it, too, actually. It says that under critical hits and multiplying damage both. I'm not so mathy sometimes, can you better explain how this is not the same as what I said above? Extra Damage Dice would be things like Flaming, Good, Lawful, etc. -gm
	: IE - I think the proper reading of that, when you consider the exception, is "A critical hit means that you roll your (<i>ed: weapon</i>) damage more than once, with all your usual <i>bonuses</i> (Bonuses != Dice), and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2.		::::: IE - I think the proper reading of that, when you consider the exception, is "A critical hit means that you roll your (<i>ed: weapon</i>) damage more than once, with all your usual <i>bonuses</i> (Bonuses != Dice), and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2. Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit." -gm
	Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit." -gm		:::::: Again, I'm fine however it works. The main distinction it sounded like your view and the SRD differed on was for non-diced modifiers. Your initial quote was that all bonuses (e.g. smite and power attack) shouldn't be included. According to the SRD as I read it "all modifiers" are fine unless they are diced. So special ''diced'' damage is excluded like sneak attack, flaming weapon +1d6, extra smiting +1d6 damage from my bracers/feats that are diced, etc. Those are all excluded. But undiced modifiers like raw smite damage itself (i.e. the inherent +1 damage per level) would be included, weapon specialization, power attack, Good Hope damage bonus, Favored enemy, etc. All those modifiers that aren't diced damage and, from the SRD reading, would be included. So if Mose was Rhino Rushing with a smite, Power Attack 2:
			::::::* 1st layer: 1d8 slashing +2 (enhancement) +11 (smite) +2 (PowerA) +2 (stat) +1d6 fire +1d4 law +2d6 good (bracers&feat)
			::::::* 2nd layer: 1d8 slashing +2 (enhancement) +11 (smite) +2 (PowerA) +2 (stat)
			:::::: We would total up both layers there as the "doubled" damage. Does that match what you think the SRD is saying? -Mattie

	:::: It's only the dice they intend as not doubling, but bonuses they recommend as being included. And, as we talked about before, the other caveat is that multiple multipliers just add to the overall multiplier, and don't keep doubling. So Rhino's Rush + Crit is just x3 and not x4. But honestly, I'm 100% fine with ignoring this, because multipliers is an easy way for things to get out of control and I don't want to be on the receiving end of a big multiplier as much as I'd like to deliver them. ;) In general I'm finally getting comfortable with the SRD's description. But it may very well still be too powerful overall. -[[User:Mattie\|Mattie]]		:::: It's only the dice they intend as not doubling, but bonuses they recommend as being included. And, as we talked about before, the other caveat is that multiple multipliers just add to the overall multiplier, and don't keep doubling. So Rhino's Rush + Crit is just x3 and not x4. But honestly, I'm 100% fine with ignoring this, because multipliers is an easy way for things to get out of control and I don't want to be on the receiving end of a big multiplier as much as I'd like to deliver them. ;) In general I'm finally getting comfortable with the SRD's description. But it may very well still be too powerful overall. -[[User:Mattie\|Mattie]]
	: See also this discussion[http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-discussion/229536-critical-hit-sneak-attack.html]\		::::: See also this discussion[http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-discussion/229536-critical-hit-sneak-attack.html]\
	:: You are absolutely correct about linear doubling and I'm fine with that, although 3.5 in most cases has removed that as a possibility be changing the stacking rules for things like Keen and Improved Critical, so really Rhino's Rush is the only way I can think off off the top of my head to get stacking multiples.		:::::: You are absolutely correct about linear doubling and I'm fine with that, although 3.5 in most cases has removed that as a possibility be changing the stacking rules for things like Keen and Improved Critical, so really Rhino's Rush is the only way I can think off off the top of my head to get stacking multiples.
	:: Sneak Attack damage is specifically excluded from criticals " Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied."		:::::: Sneak Attack damage is specifically excluded from criticals " Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied." -gm
	::		::::::: I was thinking also lance, Spirited Charge, and the like all give you more chance at multiples, so they'd just linear add more layers if you Rhino Rush'd and/or crit'd. We're on the same page there, yeah. -[[User:Mattie\|Mattie]]

	== Some need ==		== Some need ==

Detarame at 15:34, 28 June 2011

2011-06-28T15:34:33Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:34, 28 June 2011
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	== Swift Action? ==		== Swift Action? ==
			<div style="float:right; border:1px solid black;">
			http://i.imgur.com/xXPJL.png
			</div>

	See ~~[http://i.imgur.com/xXPJL.png this~~ screenshot]. I just stumbled upon this spell in the Spell Compendium and maybe it was copied wrong? (Or was errata'd?) Do we want to change our version so Mose will suddenly have a new spell he likes? :) -[[User:Mattie\|Mattie]]		See screenshot to the right. I just stumbled upon this spell in the Spell Compendium and maybe it was copied wrong? (Or was errata'd?) Do we want to change our version so Mose will suddenly have a new spell he likes? :) -[[User:Mattie\|Mattie]]

	:Maybe so. Do you know where I originally sourced it? -gm		:Maybe so. Do you know where I originally sourced it? -gm
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	::: Indeed. I'm not opposed to it being moved to swift, but I want to make it explicit here and now -> I'm ruling this is essentially like scoring an automatic critical hit. That means weapon damage (ONLY) is doubled, just like a critical. So, good bonuses, lawful bonuses, smite bonuses, flame bonuses, other named or diced bonuses will NOT double. (This is also true of criticals, but sad for all the monsters of the world ALL of Quin's damage is weapon damage.) Power Attack WILL double, because that precedent is set and, frankly, you're giving up something to gain the bonus, and because it is unnamed. Sneak Attacks ARE diced damage, and don't double on criticals so would not double, should that hypothetical ever arise. How's that sound? -gm		::: Indeed. I'm not opposed to it being moved to swift, but I want to make it explicit here and now -> I'm ruling this is essentially like scoring an automatic critical hit. That means weapon damage (ONLY) is doubled, just like a critical. So, good bonuses, lawful bonuses, smite bonuses, flame bonuses, other named or diced bonuses will NOT double. (This is also true of criticals, but sad for all the monsters of the world ALL of Quin's damage is weapon damage.) Power Attack WILL double, because that precedent is set and, frankly, you're giving up something to gain the bonus, and because it is unnamed. Sneak Attacks ARE diced damage, and don't double on criticals so would not double, should that hypothetical ever arise. How's that sound? -gm
	:::: I'm 100% happy with your ruling, but if it's important for your decision I want to note that it's different than [http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm SRD for multiplying damage]. I'm cool either way:		:::: I'm 100% happy with your ruling, but if it's important for your decision I want to note that it's different than [http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm SRD for multiplying damage]. I'm cool either way:
	<~~div style="font-family:Courier New;background:#DFDFDF;padding:5px;margin-left:10em;"~~><p>Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage.</p>		<blockquote><pre>Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage.

			Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied.</pre></blockquote>
			: I don't understand? Under the section entitled "multiplying damage," there is the quote "Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied." You've quoted it, too, actually. It says that under critical hits and multiplying damage both. I'm not so mathy sometimes, can you better explain how this is not the same as what I said above? Extra Damage Dice would be things like Flaming, Good, Lawful, etc. -gm
			: IE - I think the proper reading of that, when you consider the exception, is "A critical hit means that you roll your (<i>ed: weapon</i>) damage more than once, with all your usual <i>bonuses</i> (Bonuses != Dice), and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2.
			Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit." -gm


	~~<p>Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied.</p></div>~~
	:::: It's only the dice they intend as not doubling, but bonuses they recommend as being included. And, as we talked about before, the other caveat is that multiple multipliers just add to the overall multiplier, and don't keep doubling. So Rhino's Rush + Crit is just x3 and not x4. But honestly, I'm 100% fine with ignoring this, because multipliers is an easy way for things to get out of control and I don't want to be on the receiving end of a big multiplier as much as I'd like to deliver them. ;) In general I'm finally getting comfortable with the SRD's description. But it may very well still be too powerful overall. -[[User:Mattie\|Mattie]]		:::: It's only the dice they intend as not doubling, but bonuses they recommend as being included. And, as we talked about before, the other caveat is that multiple multipliers just add to the overall multiplier, and don't keep doubling. So Rhino's Rush + Crit is just x3 and not x4. But honestly, I'm 100% fine with ignoring this, because multipliers is an easy way for things to get out of control and I don't want to be on the receiving end of a big multiplier as much as I'd like to deliver them. ;) In general I'm finally getting comfortable with the SRD's description. But it may very well still be too powerful overall. -[[User:Mattie\|Mattie]]
			: See also this discussion[http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-discussion/229536-critical-hit-sneak-attack.html]\
			:: You are absolutely correct about linear doubling and I'm fine with that, although 3.5 in most cases has removed that as a possibility be changing the stacking rules for things like Keen and Improved Critical, so really Rhino's Rush is the only way I can think off off the top of my head to get stacking multiples.
			:: Sneak Attack damage is specifically excluded from criticals " Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied."
			::

	== Some need ==		== Some need ==

Mattie: /* Swift Action? */ formatting

2011-06-28T14:19:24Z

Swift Action?: formatting

← Older revision		Revision as of 14:19, 28 June 2011
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	::: Indeed. I'm not opposed to it being moved to swift, but I want to make it explicit here and now -> I'm ruling this is essentially like scoring an automatic critical hit. That means weapon damage (ONLY) is doubled, just like a critical. So, good bonuses, lawful bonuses, smite bonuses, flame bonuses, other named or diced bonuses will NOT double. (This is also true of criticals, but sad for all the monsters of the world ALL of Quin's damage is weapon damage.) Power Attack WILL double, because that precedent is set and, frankly, you're giving up something to gain the bonus, and because it is unnamed. Sneak Attacks ARE diced damage, and don't double on criticals so would not double, should that hypothetical ever arise. How's that sound? -gm		::: Indeed. I'm not opposed to it being moved to swift, but I want to make it explicit here and now -> I'm ruling this is essentially like scoring an automatic critical hit. That means weapon damage (ONLY) is doubled, just like a critical. So, good bonuses, lawful bonuses, smite bonuses, flame bonuses, other named or diced bonuses will NOT double. (This is also true of criticals, but sad for all the monsters of the world ALL of Quin's damage is weapon damage.) Power Attack WILL double, because that precedent is set and, frankly, you're giving up something to gain the bonus, and because it is unnamed. Sneak Attacks ARE diced damage, and don't double on criticals so would not double, should that hypothetical ever arise. How's that sound? -gm
	:::: I'm 100% happy with your ruling, but if it's important for your decision I want to note that it's different than [http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm SRD for multiplying damage]. I'm cool either way:		:::: I'm 100% happy with your ruling, but if it's important for your decision I want to note that it's different than [http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm SRD for multiplying damage]. I'm cool either way:
	<div style="font-family:Courier New;background:#DFDFDF;padding:5px;margin-left:10em;">Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage		<div style="font-family:Courier New;background:#DFDFDF;padding:5px;margin-left:10em;"><p>Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage.</p>
	(with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. Note: When you multiply damage
	more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage.

	~~Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied~~.</~~div~~>

			<p>Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied.</p></div>
	:::: It's only the dice they intend as not doubling, but bonuses they recommend as being included. And, as we talked about before, the other caveat is that multiple multipliers just add to the overall multiplier, and don't keep doubling. So Rhino's Rush + Crit is just x3 and not x4. But honestly, I'm 100% fine with ignoring this, because multipliers is an easy way for things to get out of control and I don't want to be on the receiving end of a big multiplier as much as I'd like to deliver them. ;) In general I'm finally getting comfortable with the SRD's description. But it may very well still be too powerful overall. -[[User:Mattie\|Mattie]]		:::: It's only the dice they intend as not doubling, but bonuses they recommend as being included. And, as we talked about before, the other caveat is that multiple multipliers just add to the overall multiplier, and don't keep doubling. So Rhino's Rush + Crit is just x3 and not x4. But honestly, I'm 100% fine with ignoring this, because multipliers is an easy way for things to get out of control and I don't want to be on the receiving end of a big multiplier as much as I'd like to deliver them. ;) In general I'm finally getting comfortable with the SRD's description. But it may very well still be too powerful overall. -[[User:Mattie\|Mattie]]

Mattie: /* Swift Action? */ fixing formatting for the page

2011-06-28T14:17:57Z

Swift Action?: fixing formatting for the page

← Older revision		Revision as of 14:17, 28 June 2011
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	== Swift Action? ==		== Swift Action? ==
	~~<div style="float:right; border:1px solid black;">~~
	~~http://i.imgur.com/xXPJL.png~~
	~~</div>~~

	See screenshot ~~to the right~~. I just stumbled upon this spell in the Spell Compendium and maybe it was copied wrong? (Or was errata'd?) Do we want to change our version so Mose will suddenly have a new spell he likes? :) -[[User:Mattie\|Mattie]]		See [http://i.imgur.com/xXPJL.png this screenshot]. I just stumbled upon this spell in the Spell Compendium and maybe it was copied wrong? (Or was errata'd?) Do we want to change our version so Mose will suddenly have a new spell he likes? :) -[[User:Mattie\|Mattie]]

	:Maybe so. Do you know where I originally sourced it? -gm		:Maybe so. Do you know where I originally sourced it? -gm
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	::: Indeed. I'm not opposed to it being moved to swift, but I want to make it explicit here and now -> I'm ruling this is essentially like scoring an automatic critical hit. That means weapon damage (ONLY) is doubled, just like a critical. So, good bonuses, lawful bonuses, smite bonuses, flame bonuses, other named or diced bonuses will NOT double. (This is also true of criticals, but sad for all the monsters of the world ALL of Quin's damage is weapon damage.) Power Attack WILL double, because that precedent is set and, frankly, you're giving up something to gain the bonus, and because it is unnamed. Sneak Attacks ARE diced damage, and don't double on criticals so would not double, should that hypothetical ever arise. How's that sound? -gm		::: Indeed. I'm not opposed to it being moved to swift, but I want to make it explicit here and now -> I'm ruling this is essentially like scoring an automatic critical hit. That means weapon damage (ONLY) is doubled, just like a critical. So, good bonuses, lawful bonuses, smite bonuses, flame bonuses, other named or diced bonuses will NOT double. (This is also true of criticals, but sad for all the monsters of the world ALL of Quin's damage is weapon damage.) Power Attack WILL double, because that precedent is set and, frankly, you're giving up something to gain the bonus, and because it is unnamed. Sneak Attacks ARE diced damage, and don't double on criticals so would not double, should that hypothetical ever arise. How's that sound? -gm
	:::: I'm 100% happy with your ruling, but if it's important for your decision I want to note that it's different than [http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm SRD for multiplying damage]. I'm cool either way:		:::: I'm 100% happy with your ruling, but if it's important for your decision I want to note that it's different than [http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm SRD for multiplying damage]. I'm cool either way:
	<~~blockquote><pre~~>Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage		<div style="font-family:Courier New;background:#DFDFDF;padding:5px;margin-left:10em;">Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage
	(with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. Note: When you multiply damage		(with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. Note: When you multiply damage
	more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage.		more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage.

	Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied.</~~pre></blockquote~~>		Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied.</div>

	:::: It's only the dice they intend as not doubling, but bonuses they recommend as being included. And, as we talked about before, the other caveat is that multiple multipliers just add to the overall multiplier, and don't keep doubling. So Rhino's Rush + Crit is just x3 and not x4. But honestly, I'm 100% fine with ignoring this, because multipliers is an easy way for things to get out of control and I don't want to be on the receiving end of a big multiplier as much as I'd like to deliver them. ;) In general I'm finally getting comfortable with the SRD's description. But it may very well still be too powerful overall. -[[User:Mattie\|Mattie]]		:::: It's only the dice they intend as not doubling, but bonuses they recommend as being included. And, as we talked about before, the other caveat is that multiple multipliers just add to the overall multiplier, and don't keep doubling. So Rhino's Rush + Crit is just x3 and not x4. But honestly, I'm 100% fine with ignoring this, because multipliers is an easy way for things to get out of control and I don't want to be on the receiving end of a big multiplier as much as I'd like to deliver them. ;) In general I'm finally getting comfortable with the SRD's description. But it may very well still be too powerful overall. -[[User:Mattie\|Mattie]]