View source for RP: Shameless Self-Promotion

Under the incessant pounding of {{Kimika}}'s Ring of the Ram, the stone slab standing between the [[Wydmoor Thieves' Guild|Guild's]] trapped tomb and the fresh, clean air crumbles away. As you emerge from the catacombs and looks around, you see looks of dismay and agitation on all of your friends' faces, but none so intense as that of {{Germain}}. He sputters and stammers, clearly wanting to speak, but in place of his usual incessant and tiresome dialog, there is little more than red-faced silence. He turns to face the group, closes his eyes, and takes a few deep breaths, and finally manages a sentence:


; {{Germain}} : It's not that we were lied to. It's not that we walked into a trap. I expected both. It's that we are little more than lap dogs, begging for tasks and treats to win favor in the eyes of a bunch of incompetents. The guild and the wraiths have forced our hand time and time again, and once more we have accepted it without complaint, unwilling to set our own path!<br/><br/>Don't you see that these people will never win this war? This whole damn issue was caused by the Wraith's politicking. They have tied themselves up with the Odessans with the hopes of currying some sort of political capital for themselves, and were caught with their dicks in their hands. And all they can do is turtle in their little castle, hoping for someone to save them. The Guild, on the other hand, has stepped from the shadows, and despite the fact that their behavior has weakened the city considerably, they have managed to twist our arms to help them build smuggling routes and deal with their own internal strife without risking their own necks. And I'm sure they have been rewarded by our goddamn compliance!<br/><br/>We are nothing more than a bunch of fucking lackeys! What are we trying to save? Bricks and stones? The people of Wydmoor are dying alone, while we scramble to help a bunch of cowering nobles, politicking mercenaries, and opportunistic thieves! We are the only people that seem to be willing to stick our necks out to save this city, and yet we can't seem to pull our heads out of our asses and do what needs to be done! All we can manage to do is run errands for the bastards that put the city in this position in the first place! What the hell are we doing?!?

{{Germain}} glowers and fumes.


{{Al}} finds himself in the odd position of completely agreeing with {{Germain}} on matters of politics.

; {{Al}} : Yeah, dude!  I still don't really get why everyone's so worried about who gets to sit at what table in what room, but I'm all for dumping the lot of them and just helping the people who need help!  Stick it to the man!  Let's go take all the food, medicine, etc from the rich folks and give it to the people who need it.  But that's just a stopgap.  What we really need to do is help these people learn to survive on their own!  Teach them how to grow their own food and live off the land, outside these horrible walls.


; {{Kimika}} looks up thoughtfully. : "I agree with you both and I desperately want to help the people of Wydmoor; the ones who are suffering. What do you suggest we do, Germain?"


; {{Quinalin}} snorts then replies in a dispirited tone, : "I recall, though it seems like years ago, we got started in this city by trying to distribute wealth to the citizens so they could buy the right to vote for someone who would stand up for them.  All that got them was burned out of their homes.  We tried to take down one corrupt and evil official, and now it feels like there is nothing but corruption or at least pure self-interest.  We can't just take over the city for ourselves.  The Odessans don't seem to be interested in helping anyone.  I don't see many good choices here although I would be happy to have my eyes opened.


; {{Egg}} : I don't think you're wrong, either of you, not exactly, but I think you're all "missing the Owlbear." Err, that doesn't translate so cleanly, but you get the idea, maybe? Everyone we worth with... for? They all have *agendas*. Plans and goals. What do we have? What do we want?<br/><br/>If we want to help the refugees, why are we sitting with sacks overflowing with desperately needed healing gear settling personal vendettas in town? If we want to see the Odessans crushed, why do we refusing to leave sight of the city for more than a week at a time to strike against them? The Odessans, for all their advantages and strengths here, are spread across the mainland to the point that attacking them anywhere is attacking them everywhere. If we want is to see the Odessans gone, why are we not negotiating with them, especially now that their claims and demands are laid bare? We grab for everything and so take hold of nothing, and then direct our anger at those who employ us to their ends. Imagining, perhaps, that just because we all share the desire to lift the siege that all of our other desires are harmonious. <br/><br/>It's appropriate we all meet in the "War Room." Because, while the war rages outside, another one is fought within. The war to save Wydmoor, and the war to rule it afterwards. Which war are we fighting? <br/><br/>My partner talks easily of "doing what needs to be done," but what does that even mean? Might as well say we want to "make the world a better place" or "oppose evil." It's nice talk for a sermon, but not much of a plan of action. An easy, comfortable thought, and a good line to rouse the masses, but something the Silverwalkers seem to have struggled to nail down for as long as I've worked with you. Without any personal goals it is certainly convenient and profitable to work for those who do, but don't expect their agendas to make room for our pet issues.


; {{Germain}} : Exactly. Each of those acts you mention, Quinn, were another's plans... we were only the executors. Perhaps these plans were really mistakes, but they might also be plans within plans. These plans certainly benefited '''someone''', perhaps even the person who brought them to us. How can you say they didn't match our agenda? We don't have an agenda! It's time we did.<br/><br/>Don't kid yourselves--we'll make plenty of mistakes, but that is no reason to refuse to make decisions. We have many irons in the fire right now, and while we have been negligent in working all of them, we are left with many options. Do we find a way to save the refugees? Do we deepen the schism within the guild? Do we throw the Wraiths to the wolves as punishment for their political machinations that brought us here? Do we expedite the foundation of the Traveller's Temple in Wydmoor? Do we weigh in against Odessa in their other conflicts with the Wraiths in Alexia? Do we open up a new conflict for them in Celestia? It's time to pick the projects we feel are most decisive, and use our time to drive them. The power brokers that rule this city have failed to protect it--it's time to become power brokers ourselves to set things right.<br/><br/>Now, what do we do first?


; {{Mose}} : By Alexandria, Germain-- did an air elemental drop you on your head or something? We are on a mission of our own already. I feel like we've been driving our quest for Good all along. Sure, we've been used and abused, but ''(waving his sword over his head)'' we've also done our share of abusing, too! I'm convinced at this stage that we've already been smacked around and abused too much by these vampires and this Thieves Guild. We need to put an end to that and I'm even more convinced now that they fooled us into this trap. I don't want to do *anything* but continue to attack them. Sure, perhaps it's important to jump in and ''(with condescension)'' diplomaticize with various groups, but there's one thing I have learned is that you ''never'' turn your back on a thief, let alone an entire guild of them. That goes doubly for vampires, wererats, and ''(trying to catch up with his mouth)'' undead vampire wizarding assassins. They will thwart us behind the scenes at every turn, as they have so many times, if we back away. Let's hit them as hard as possible while there's a chance they think we're dead in their trap. We'll have time enough to do ''(trying to use proper grammar)'' powerbroking once we've shown the rest of the city that we won't tolerate evil in this town, and that there's finally someone in town that can stand up to it.


; {{Germain}} : No doubt we've been fighting the good fight, but we've been doing little more than reacting and we have not been working towards a larger plan. Routing the Guild, even if they are weakened by an internal schism, is not a matter of hours or even days. It's weeks or months of our undivided attention, plus the attention of most of the [[Azure Geese|Geese]]. In that time, what will happen? It's unlikely that anything will change with the refugees, and the rest of them will probably die. No one will launch an assault on the Odessans and they will have more time to recuperate and regroup for another attack of their own. Are we ok with that?<br/><br/>The point is, even though we've been doing good deeds, we've been all over the place and it shows in the sustainability of our work. The time we spent helping the refugees only prolonged their suffering, because when we left them behind and ignored them, half of them died just the same. If the Theives Guild, the Wraiths, the Odessans, or someone in [[Sherdam]] pisses off the lizard folk--probably far too likely--they may unleash those guardians on the swamp just the same as our blackguard friend did. And if we only manage to get half-way into routing the guild before we wander off on another project, they'll regroup and slide into the shadows, and we'll be back where we started.<br/><br/>I think the Guild is a time sink--lots of work with a low chance of success. We know little to nothing about the vampire, but I suspect that it has been active in Wydmoor for over 700 years in near-complete secrecy despite some high-profile accomplishments. It is going to take a lot of time and manpower to make an impact on its organization. Frankly, it would probably be quicker and easier to win a personal war on the entire Odessan army than it would be to take the Guild. Regarding the refugees, however, I think we possess the political capital and lack the opposition to solve their problem more permanently, and perhaps even bring them back into the city, in less than a week.<br/><br/>So... are you sure a war against the guild is really the right course now?


; {{Al}} : Solve the refugee problem how?  If we bring them into the city, won't they just starve and die of disease here instead of where they are now?  I'd love to help the refugees, but just saying "solve their problem permanently" isn't a plan, and if we just move them around from place to place, what good does it do them?  I'm no expert on the politics of refugees and war, so maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to me that the best way to help the refugees would be to end the war and get them back into their regular lives.  Ideally, we could teach them the survival skills necessary to live off the land, but that's a longer term project.


{{LE}} likes to follow Germain's lead in matters like this. She listens, but only barely. Discussions like this are not her cup of tea.


; {{Germain}} : The city keeps a significant grain reserve to protect against seiges like this one. It's a function of their history--since Wydmoor gained its independence after a long seige, their founders provisioned to be able to sustain another. Given this year's long growing season, the decimation of the population through disease and fire, and the fact that the Mayor only released a pittiance of the grain to the refugees, these reserves should be abundant. It's not lack of grain that has caused the refugees to starve--its the fact that the mayor refused to release it and the wraiths can't move it through occupied territory. Inside the city, there should be enough to weather a long seige.


; {{Al}} : Ok, so say we get the refugees into the city.  How do we know the city will give them food?  I'm not suggesting that we shouldn't get them into the city (assuming the food is really available), just that we ought to have some assurance that the food will be given to them.  How do we know, for example, that whoever's in charge of the food won't keep it for themselves?  I mean, who's to say they aren't planning for a years-long siege?  Or that the slimy city leaders aren't just greedy bastards who don't care if a bunch of refugees die?<br/><br/>I've seen enough of how cities are run to know that the leaders don't necessarily have their residents' best interests as a priority.  Personally, I think we should tear down all walls in all cities and teach people to live as nature intended, but, again, that's more of a long-term project.  Short-term, I'm all for getting the food to the people who need it by whatever means necessary.  I just think we need a plan other than "trust the greedy bastards to do what's right."  I'm completely ok with part of that plan being "the Silverwalkers find the food and forcibly take it from the greedy bastards."


{{talk|Assume the preceding has "dude" and "stick it to the man" scattered throughout.  Also, maybe a tangent to talk about the process of growing grain in the wild.
|Trav}}
{{talk|It's stops being the wild once you cultivate it. ;)  |GM|indent=2}}
{{talk|Who said anything about cultivation?|Trav|indent=4}}


; {{Kimika}} brightens at the talk of getting the refugees into the city. She sits down and prays furtively for Alexandria's help in saving these people. : Many of the refugees are sick. I could summon a small herd of bison to pull wagons with refugees toward the city. However, much of the warrens are still burnt down and resources in that respect would be more limited. Perhaps we could establish a permanent residence for the refugees in the Landing? <br/><br/>{{Kimika}} sighs. "I'm no good at planning. I do want to save the refugees, not only for their sake but so Bethnalay's death won't be in vain."


; {{Egg}} : I think it's going to take more than a few dozen bison summoned for an hour or two to get thousands of sick and dying people moved - through siege lines and enemy occupied land - into a city that actively doesn't want them. Don't get me wrong, Kimi, I'm not saying your idea is impossible, or even that it's bad. It's just, well, like the gnomes say "Dream Big, Scheme Big." Even the most radical things being suggested are not impossible, not in a world that saw Gracklek's castle fly: seizing the grain supply, relocating all of the refugees, *smiles at Quin*, hells, even "taking over the city." More has been done by fewer, but never by accident and never by increment. <br/><br/>I think, Al, you get to the heart of our problem in regards to the refugees. Not the disease, part, though. I don't know that the Odessans have left us with enough materials to clear the poxes from camp, but certainly to alleviate their woes now that the hobgoblin reavers have taken their vengeance. However, all reports are that Onrarch is essentially a ruin now: the Onrarch Halflings have taken to flight since the death of Bethanalay and abscondment of Maggr and his outriders, relying about the Concord Traditions to let them slip passed the Ubrekti closed borders. Since then, the Odessans have taken no notice of them and the Free City has been unable to send any more food or aid past the siege lines. Now, if that aid would move even if it could is anybody's guess. As several of us have suggested, the commoners are an ancillary concern to the Powers That Be in Wydmoor, even the Bog Wraiths. I don't know that they're "greedy", exactly. Well, some of them certainly are, and I suppose to us most of them seem that way - but to you, Al, burning a forest seems like a high crime while to the Bog Wraiths it is just a matter of common sense: easier to replant a grove than unraze a city.  To them, so long as the city stands, new bodies will flood in to replace the old. Laborers. Farmers. Desperate men and women hoping for a better life. These are not in short supply in the world we live in. They do the work and clean the shit, but make none of the decisions and are infinitely replaceable. *scowls* I'm acquainted intimately with the mindset, but I think we should have learned by now that assigning moral values to these decisions - and leveling moral judgement against those making them - does nothing but hurt us in the long run. They have their priorities and concerns, and we have ours. Where they overlap, we can work together... but where they conflict?  Hmmm. <br/><br/>But, that's just me thinking out loud again. Al's right about one thing: the plight of the refugees is not the concern of the Wraiths, or anyone else for that matter. Edrell is about the only person who has ever done much for them, and who is to say if that kindness and support was from compassion or political calculus?


; {{Germain}} : Don't understimate us. Once the refugees are in the city, its much easier than you think to make sure they are taken care of. Whether you realise it or not, I've been very careful with my politicing to create a situation where only the Geese and the Silverwalkers have any real capital with the refugees. If they receive the grain and care they need, we are probably the only ones that can keep them peaceful and the city running normally. If they do not receive what they need and we retaract our support, I can assure that there will be riots. In another time, the riots would be easy enough to suppress, but with the Odessans at our door it's a strain on the city's defenses. Also, you are underestimating our ability as power players to force the issue once the excuses about supply lines and sieges are gone. The powers-that-be are well aware of all of this, so we will almost certainly have to play hardball to get them to help us, but once they are here I think providing for them will be a much simpler task.<br/><br/>I'm not, to be clear, advocating that this should be our number one priority. This is a task where we have a reasonable chance for a quick, successful turnaround, will garner us significant capital in the city, and is morally "correct" and compasionate. I also think it's far more workable and viable plan than attacking the guild directly. But there are other plans out there to consider if we feel like another task is more important than the lives of the refugees.


; {{Egg}} : *If* the refugees were in the city, the threat of riot would be a real one, don't you mean? Where they are currently, outside of the walls and on the wrong side of an opposing army army, their ability to influence the city is nil. Hells, that's probably one of the many reasons no one of influence wants them back.


; {{Kimika}} brightens and speaks excitedly. : "Travelers outpost! What if we went to the refugee camp and remade it into a Travelers Outpost, setting up a more organized and permanent settlement there? If we claim it is Travelers, and thus an extension of the Alexandrian church, we can get resources through by means of the church. This also fulfills Mose's dreams. The church will also be thrilled because it gives them a stronghold near Wydmoor, which is completely up in the airstride as the Church's official stance is that no cleric can participate in a war but only give aid. Now is the time! I also would like to shift my focus of my clerical duties from education to learning how to allow people to travel more effectively. It may be a far-shot, sure, but no one other than us could make this happen! Let's do this!"


; {{Egg}} : Now we're thinking big, at least! Sadly, Kimika, as audacious a plan as that is, I don't think we have the influence to pull it off. Mose doesn't have the authority to set up outposts wherever he wants. We might as well declare ourselves Kings and Queens for all the power we'd have to enforce such a claim. If the Church had any desire to get involved in this, they'd have done so well before now. That doesn't mean they couldn't be *forced* to become involved somehow, but that kind of grand scheming is beyond me, I'm sad to say. <br/><br/>I think that you bring up good points, though, Kimi. Something has to be done with the refugees - something *organized*. What good will it do to ease their sickness only to have them die of starvation, or even kill each other once everyone is healthy enough to take advantage of the lawnessness. Also, I think you've hit on something else, Kimi: whatever we do, as influential as we've become and as much clout as we have with the refugees, we're going to need *someone* of import supporting whatever our final plan is: either publicly or privately. We're rich, competent, and respected enough that other people need us for their schemes. I imagine we're going to learn with a quickness that runs both ways.


{{Germain}} ponders who might support us.


; {{Quinalin}} : I don't know enough about the siege protections the city has other than the teleport barrier, but is there any way we could wholesale smuggle the people into the city?  We have a huge burned out area that is mostly unattended.. could we have a fleet of giant badgers headed by Al dig a tunnel route through to the refugees with Kimi providing rock-to-mud and such? I could craft deadfalls to protect the tunnel and render it impassible once we were done with it..  You mentioned Gracklek's castle... could we fly them in? Create a large cloud cover and hover them in on levitating barges?  As far as what Egg was saying about pulling strings, I think we could probably try to lean on Edrell to look the other way for some piece of the magical protections that he is administrating.


; {{Egg}} : Even among burnt out ruins, they've gotta be better of inside the city than outside: access to water and food, some measure of law and order. Assuming we can stop them from bringing the Pox in with them, that is. Nothing would sour the Silverwalkers reputation more than smuggling plague into the city.  <br/><br/>You know, Quin, that's actually... quite clever. Not the flying, I think that's probably beyond any of us, but that other thing. I was thinking actually getting them *into* the city was an all but insurmountable problem of its own. But, yeah, it's quite simple, really.  If we could get them *to* the city walls, somehow, then some sort of army of tunneling creatures or whatever it is Al does might be sufficient to get them inside.  Best case, you're talking a day of work between the digging and the moving, and the Wraiths or whoever could easily move to intervene if they found out, with force if necessary, I've no doubt. <br/><br/>I suppose even a Stone to Mud spell would cut that time down into the hours, but then we'd definitely need someone backing out play. No one would appreciate us melting a hole in the one thing staving off a good, old fashioned city razing, although a few Wall of Stone spells might patch up the damage. I doubt it would be that easy, though. I imagine whatever sorts of wards and spells enchant the walls would be severely damaged by poking holes in the wall. If the wall isn't, indeed, impervious to that sort of thing outright. It would have to be, right? Otherwise one or two of those University wizards they have stashed away someplace would just liquefy the Wraith's walls and that'd be that. But, the tunneling idea might just work. The Odessans have proven its efficacy. Sometimes the 'boring' solutions are the best, right? *chuckles* <br/><br/>I think you're right, Quin, that Edrell is our best bet as an accomplice or whatever you want to call it for however this goes down. Him or the Guild, probably, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd think working with the guild on any future projects is off the table. So, Edrell. Protecting the Forager's Gate is his responsibility, so he'd be able to force the issue if he so desired, or perhaps use magic to obfuscate our ruse. Also, these are ostensibly "his" people, so if anyone other that you guys gives a Alexian penny about the refugees, it's him. <br/><br/>Now, that only leaves the other impossible problem of getting thousands of half-starved and disease ridden refugees from Onrarch to the city walls themselves. It's far too many to move magically without some sort of permanent portal emplacement, a task far beyond any of us - Edrell included, I feel safe in saying. Whatever we do among the refugees, however, will have to be done carefully and quietly. The Odessans seem to be willing to leave the camp alone, as their supply lines have no need of the river, but we're no doubt almost as well known to them as we are to our own people, and catching wind of us engaging in some sort of unknown mischief in the camps will draw undue and probably violent attention.


; {{Germain}} : All this talk about tunnels makes reminds me that there is another way into the city that may not require burrowing through the its defensive fortifications. Edrell's new digs--the Magus' Keep--is outside the city walls, maintains its own defensive and magical fortifications, and is connected to the city by something that is decidedly not a tunnel--the [[Non-Tunnel]]. Can this device move thousands of people? Is this a more viable entrance into the city? No matter how we breach the city walls, we might expect a fight from the Wraiths or another agency, but Edrell may well open his gates for them. If we can get them to the keep, is there a viable way to move them into the city, or at least more easily provide for them?


; {{Egg}} : Hmmm. Sure, I don't see why not, Germain. Moving hundreds - or even thousands - of people at once is what those sort of permanent gate/portals are for. That would definitely require Edrell's collaboration. 


; {{Quinalin}} : It might be possible to move the tunnel much further outside the reach of the city walls than you'd think, I wouldn't put anything past Al's ability to dig.  I remember how quickly he worked to dig us safeholes and to do that sapping work on the orc village.  I'd love to see if the Non-Tunnel might provide an easier way for us to move the people than breaching the city proper.<br/><br/>The pox part is the biggest problem I see with the plan.  What about the Temporal Authority? I know they declined Ralth's plan of declaring war, but could we possibly pop over to Daltim or near by with the cap, and beg them for some major healing to ease the suffering of the refugees so we can enact our plan to bring them to relative safety?


; {{Mose}} : Now I'm all for foolhardy adventurers using makeshift badger tunnels and risking our lives to them, but the dwarves have a saying ''(something in dwarven)'' that roughly translates to "A hasty mineshaft is a permanent grave". Unless you've got crafty dwarves planning such a tunnel or magic to keep it from caving-in, we may be setting ourselves up for a catastrophe worse than the alternative. Especially if someone sinister hears of our plan and tries to thwart it. While I very much want to help the refugees more than anything, we're also going to need ways to prevent any infiltrators from hitching a ride... Do we want more sneaky disguised hobgoblin attacks in the city? If the city is a mess now, it doesn't do anyone any good to make it worse. And finally... I still think we can't turn our back on the Thieves Guild! Anything we do, they will continue to thwart us and cause problems. They know we are hunting them, and they are going to very big lengths to exterminate us. '''Why''' in Alexandria's name would be ignoring such evil that absolutely wants to kill us and stop anything we do? Do you not recall the wererats were helping the Odessans in the sewer to try to kill '''everyone''' in the city with poisoned water supply? How they launched a hit on us just a day or so ago and almost killed Kimi? If we don't take them out, I think they will continue to try to kill us once they discover their trap failed (barely) to ruin us. Germain, you mean with all of your Silver Goosies, you can't get us a better lead on how to hit the Thieves Guild hard?


; {{Quinalin}} : Fair points Mose.  Anyone know of a way we might be able to recruit a few dwarven sappers to help me shore up the tunnel?  I'd be happy to set up two plans here.  Maybe we continue to see if we can continue to flesh out the tunnel plan which involves architecture, medical, and transportation.  While we start work on that, I'd be happy to take it to the Thieves Guild using the surprise of our survival, as long as we aren't going up against odds as implausible as going out to the field and charging the Odessan field command.


; {{Egg}} : A question for you, Mose. Ignore for a moment that the Guild has the present support of the Bog Wraiths, and assume we do decide to declare war on them. What would "attacking the Thieves' Guild" look like? What buildings would we raze? Who would we kill? We only know one person in the Guild - Fenn. We could kidnap him and torture some information out of him, I suppose, but after that ambush he unknowingly sent us into, I'd say we have every reason to doubt his knowledge. I guess we could wipe out those people we suspect of guild collaboration among the Guardsmen, but I'm not sure how comfortable you're going to be, Mose, conducting an extra-legal purge based on circumstance and heresy. <br/><br/>Now, don't get me wrong, Mose. I'd love to see the Guild hurt, and I absolutely agree they are a bigger threat to us, personally, than even the Odessans. Not to mention, I'm pretty sure Germain still hungers for the day when it's Fenn's severed head shoved in a box. But, in a way, our backs are *always* turned on the Guild. Anyone could be working for them, anyone could be one of their spies. Germain is suggesting that the Guild leader is pushing a thousand, and is probably a vampire to boot. If the Guild is truly a centuries old and established - yet still mostly invisible - institution, where would we even begin to direct our attack? I think you're right that the Germain and the Geese could probably sniff out some leads to begin, but is this going to be the work of days? Months, most likely, with the Guild - and possibly the Wraiths and others - opposing our campaign from the outset. The Dwarves of the War College like to say there are three things needed to win a war: Proper Intelligence, Proper Materials, and the Proper Season. Which of those do we currently have in regards to a war with the Guild? <br/><br/>Honestly, however, I wouldn't count on the Guild thinking we're dead. A trap that sophisticated - with a set of Greater Elementals - is an expensive proposition. If I'd set up such a place, I'd make sure I watched directly instead of just presupposing the outcome. If only to see a good fight. Now, I don't know this for sure, but I expect the Guild already knows we survived. Now, none of this means we *couldn't* somehow take this war to the Guild, only the reasons why it would be difficult and dangerous. But, so is everything we're discussing, I suppose.


{{Germain}} nods, and although he occasionally looks like he wants to interject, he does not have anything to add to Egg's synopsis.


; {{Quinalin}} : Bah! Egg, I hate to think you might be right that they already know we escaped because if they didn't, well, to keep the string of adages going.. the Petarans say you should ever watch for the opportunity to use your opponent's own move as the next step in your blade dance.  I think it would be fairly easy for us to quickly replace or disguise the broken door and then set an ambush for the people that would be bound to come look over the results of their trap.  If we captured one of them and put a charm on them then we could take the place of the others in that group and have the charmed person take us back to whoever was responsible for the trap.  If it was outside the city then we would even have the possibility of capping away if necessary.  Otherwise, we might look into the outstanding question of whether dimension door works to get us out of whatever rat nest we end up in after we take advantage of any opportunity to strike back at a person at least partially responsible for trying to wipe us out.


; {{Al}} : A few points..  Rock-to-mud doesn't work on worked stone, so that's out.  We could rock-to-mud under the wall, but that might be bad for the wall too, and we'd still have to move the mud somewhere, and mud's not easy to move around.<br/><br/>As for burrowing..  This might be fun to try, but it seems impractical.  Al-as-badger could do a lot of digging, but we need a LOT of digging.  I could summon a few extra badgers to help, but we're still talking about hundreds of feet of tunnel that has to be wide enough for lots of people at a time to walk through.  The time that it would take to dig would, I think, be very long (days maybe), and where would all the dug-out dirt go?  I suspect someone might notice a huge pile of dirt growing outside the city walls.  Even if they didn't, and we somehow made a nice tunnel, how long would it take to usher thousands of refugees through it?  That itself could take days, unless we made the tunnel huge, which would be impractical.  The refugees would be in a very dangerous position for many hours at least.  So would we, I suspect, since we wouldn't want to leave them to their own devices for that long.<br/><br/>Digging is tons of fun when you're a badger, so I hate to be so pessimistic, but I'd hate it more if all the refugees we were trying to save died because of our "rescue."<br/><br/>Dudes.


; {{Quinalin}} attempting to do an impression of Al : Dude! What a buzz-kill. I never expected you to be the stuffy guy bringing down our lofty goals like a herd of city garden planners.<br/><br/>Just kidding.  I guess I was so impressed by your work back at the Orc camp I thought it might be possible to craft a 10 or 15 foot wide tunnel long enough to go under the wall within a few days if you had the help of some war-spell summoned badgers.  I understand what you are saying.  Getting them to Eldrell's outpost is still a possibility we haven't determined infeasible yet, right?


; {{Egg}} : I hate that Al and I are such buzzkills, but I suppose better to be buzzkilled than kill-killed. I'd say, yes, we haven't found a reason we couldn't up and move the refugees. There are lots of things that make it difficult: the disease, the poor nutrition, the walls of pikemen guarding Ubrekt's north border. But, problems lust for solutions. And, as Germain has said, if we can somehow convince Edrell to let us use the Not-Tunnel, all this 'boring' *chuckles again* conversation is moot. I mean, I'm sure the Hadriarch will be less than thrilled when thousands of refugees start streaming up through the basement, but I doubt they have the means to do more than complain about it.


; {{Al}} : Hey, dude, if you can find a way to hide a cubic orc-ton of dirt for a few days, the tunnel plan could still work. How'd those clerics who were poisoning the water supply get into the sewers?  Maybe we can figure something out that way.


; {{Egg}} : I do believe they used special passwall runes created by our Dwarven runecrafter turncloak. I doubt he has the means to make thousands. About those clerics, though, they were "poisoning" it in that they were purifying it to kill the Otyughs. That's left us with a cache of purification and disease curing magical gear. But, I suppose the tunneling thing is still an option, sure. It's not like there'd be a shortage of hands to move dirt. Honestly, I'd be much more concerned with Mose's fear - collapse. Did you notice when you were in the sewers that it was mostly crafted stone? This is bogland, the earth here is soft and treacherous.


; {{Al}} : IIRC, the walls of the sewers were mostly crafted stone.


; {{Mose}} : Egg-- I didn't mean attacking the entire guild. I meant continuing our pursuit of Mantatlus, the wererats, and whomever leads them. I think chopping at the head of these factions in the Guild will prevent those groups from causing mayhem at the level of destroying the city. The rest of the Guild surely thrives in the cesspool of thieving they've started that enjoys a prosperous city more than one inside a vise. <br/><br/>Everyone-- even if they know we survived, they ''know'' we know that Fenn is a stooge, so they will be preparing immediately for new bigger ways to kill us. No one sent us to kill these guys, we came here of our own free will because we knew it was time to stop Mantatlus once and for all. Now we want to turn our backs on these guys? You don't leave a fight unfinished! How many times have we tried to kill Mantatlus now and have failed? How many times more does he have to try to poison or ambush us before we put this evil to rest? How many more minds on the War Council does he or someone on his team have to invade or control? (shouting now out of frustration) <big>'''He's a Powerful Unholy Vampire Necromancer living in Wydmoor! And he's laughing at us yet again, while he aims to destroy every Good thing we've done here.'''</big> ''Mose realizes he is shouting and calms himself, he looks embarrassed as he often does when he loses his cool when smarter people talk past him, but his character is so confused why this obviousness isn't so obvious to everyone else.''


; {{Germain}} : Mose, Mantatlus is a stooge just like Fenn. I understand he's an anathama to you, but he's only slightly more significant than his henchmen Gil and Holm were. At the end of the day, he's just a guy that hates us, and can be set upon us as if he were some sort of mad dog. When we kill him, the real leader of the guild will just find someone else, turn them into a vampire, and set them on us just the same. Killing him will not, I'm afriad, accomplish much more than some sort of abstract moral and natural victory, but it will do little to solve our personal problem with the guild.<br><br>As I see it now, there is no head-on assault that is anything more than a diversion. I think, for now, the best we can do to fight the guild is to dig into their secrets, turn their own against them, and continue to draw them out of the shadows for increasingly daring and expensive attacks. I know you don't like it, but I think its a war to be fought in libraries, backrooms, and bars for the time being. I think you should leave this to me for the time being, and I will do what I can to work against them in my way.


;{{Kimika}} sighs. : I absolutely hate Mantatlus as well, but I think the refugees need us the most at this point.  What if we get them over the walls? I could summon giant eagles and griffons- just a thought!


{{talk|You know.. I'd really have expected Al to be the one, but it feels like Mose is about to pull a Spike.  Please watch this video to the end to get the punchline. :) [http://ri.ms/oncemore Where do we go from here?]|Daniel}}
{{talk|Hahaha, excellent. Bonus points for the Buffy clip. "The battle's done and we kind of won," describes my philosophy of GMing.|GM|indent=2}}
{{talk|Says Germain: "some sort of abstract moral and '''natural victory'''"<br>Al approves.|Trav}}


; {{Egg}}: You know, I think we have lots of options for actually getting the refugees in the city, and we might even be able to mix and match, but that's all contingent on Edrell going for it. If he does, though, he's going to ask the obvious question: 'How do you plan on getting them here?'


{{talk|Some logistics/practicality type questions.. (moved to talk page: [[Talk:RP:_Shameless_Self-Promotion]]) |Trav}}


; {{Al}} : Well, how ''do'' we plan on getting them here?  We haven't really figured out how to move thousands of people through thousands of other people without any of the other people noticing.  Heck, it would probably be easier to take the food from Wydmoor and bring it to the refugees.  Hey, wait a sec..  Why not do that?  How much food could our Bags ' Carrying Stuff carry?


; {{Quinalin}} : That sounds promising Al!  We don't have to haul it ourselves.  A thousand regular sacks carried by summoned beasts would transport a lot more of it than we could in a couple of trips.  Then, we head over with all the cure gear we got from the sewer clerics and set up a hospital.  I would even be happy to give you your due and use some of the grain to cultivate some land nearby to make their temporary living space better. (Assuming it is raw grain and not meal).  Granted, I still really like the idea of following a charmed stooge back to the person who set up that trap and sticking it to them.  Heck, it might even be Mantatlus who did it.


; {{Egg}} : A good idea, and clever enough, but I can see some significant problems that will come up. Perhaps no more significant than moving the refugees, but there you go. The summoned beasts, even using War School stuff, are only going to be around for minutes, not the hours or days we'd need to move literally tons of food overland. How many bags of holding would that take? A hundred? At a minimum. We could craft some wands of Floating Disk, or pay to have them crafted, I mean, although that would be quite expensive, and an attractive target to everyone in the region once the caravan is underway. All of this ignores the fact that nobody - not even Edrell - is likely to just let us spirit off with the city's food supply, no matter how we go about it. I'm afraid that until the refugees are actually in the city, causing disorder and demanding to be fed, there will be little political will and much opposition to giving them anything at all.


; {{Al}} : '''visibly frustrated''' "Political will?"  I'm not entirely sure what you mean, but it sounds like "we don't care, they're far away."  If they don't have any reason to care about feeding those in need, we can give them a reason.  Hoarding food when there are starving people just a few miles away is evil, or at least very immoral.  I don't have any particular loyalty to Wydmoor over whatever group it is outside the walls.  Odessans, or something?  What I'm saying is..  It seems that the greedy bastards in charge of Wydmoor have shown themselves to be unworthy of our loyalty and help, so why not ignore them and do what we need to do?  Just take the food, or as much of it as we can.  Or, heck, tell the Odessans that we'd be happy to help ''them'' if they'd help us get the refugees into the city.  If they'd open up a safe corridor for the refugees to pass through, that would solve half our problem (getting them close to the city).  Once they're camped outside the city gates, we could set Germain loose and have him talk the greedy bastards into opening the gates to let the refugees in.  Or we could just take over the gate house for long enough to get the refugees into the city.  Almost anything is better than the current situation.


; {{Germain}} : I wish I could say that I thought that was a bad plan, Al, but it's not. At some point, we all need to think long and hard about whether the city isn't better off under Odessan rule. Still, I'm not ready to give up on the Wydmoor eleite just yet. The Odessans have a long histoy of being complete and total dickholes, and I don't think we'll be any more than a vassal state. I do think it's worth a real discussion with the Wraiths about how difficult it is to discuss how difficult is to accept that they are actually better than the Odessans.<br><br>I actually have a more basic concern than political capital with feeding the refugees where they are at. The reason they have been ignored is because thousands of diseased, starving people are a burden and nothing else. Food to feed thousands, even for a few days, is not a burden--it's a strategic target. If we give them enough food to care for themselves, the Odessans will almost certainly step in and take it, possibly killing hundreds or more in the process, and we'll be no better off than when we started.<br><br>Still, these are important considerations. There is no way we can move thousands of starving and diseased poor, and we'll have to give them food and succor before we can move them. Probably more than a single meal, at that. We're going to have to get a lot of food to the refugees before anything can happen, and these plans we are discussing now will be critical.<br><br>What about the [[Sojourner's Cap]]? I know it produces gruel, but that seems highly inefficient. For 10 charges, we can get 3 people into one of the mainland's major cities, and get them back out with a heavy warhorse loaded with grain for thousands. Probably also some weapons and other tools that might help us arm the refugees and the city when they return.

{{talk|While Mose doesn't know this, Kimika (and surely other priests in Wydmoor) have access to [[Feed the Masses]] which can put a pretty big dent in feeding refugees. The GM may want to errata that spell, I dunno, but it can save countless lives if we have no other option for getting them fed.|-Mattie}}

; {{Al}} : Maybe I'm naive about these things, but wouldn't the Odessans ''want'' the refugees in Wydmoor?  They'd go from being no one's problem to being Wydmoor's problem.  Besides, it would make the Odessans look like the good guys if they let the refugees through their lines, even if they're just doing it for Greedy Bastard reasons.  You're the diplomat, Germain.  Do you think it would be possible to talk the Odessans into this?  Maybe even talk them into calling a truce until the refugees are in the city?  You know: "Dear, Wydmoor:  If you open your gates to let these poor, starving people into your city where they can get food and medical care, we pinky promise not to attack while your gates are open to let them in!  Love, the Odessans."  Then we could stick ourselves between the Odessans and the refugees to make sure the Odessans honor their promise, at least for long enough for the refugees to get through the gates.


; {{Germain}}'s eyes open wide with excitement : Holy shit... talk about not seeing the forest for the trees! Quite possibly a genius idea! We'll make a politician out of you yet, Al.

{{Germain}} winks.


; {{Al}} : I'm more of an NGO type. (OOC: Neutral Good Organization?) Druids Without Borders.<br>'''wistfully''' Most people see neither forests nor trees unless they're in the way and they have to cut them down.


; {{Egg}} : And interesting thought, and I'm taken by the bald-faced audacity of it, but I can think of a couple of questions that are going to bring the whole thing down. Can we make such an agreement with the Odessans? Maybe. Can we trust they won't send in sappers and saboteurs and spies with the refugees? Probably not. Can we expect the town of Wydmoor to open its gates during a siege to thousands of hungry mouths? Under no circumstances. We might as well get back to talk of flying them in on the back of a thousand thousand eagles. Omnity have mercy, if we're not all so blinded by your own self-righteousness and moral certainty that you find it impossible to think or see through any other goggles, and that makes you difficult to work with and impossible to predict. Honestly, to put it bluntly, that makes you more dangerous than the Odessans or even the Guild to Wydmoor. The Guild, the Wraiths, even the Odessans. They can be trusted to behave in a certain, logical way. Their actions can be expected, their positions and desires predicted.  What do we do? We expect people to be purer than Alexandria herself and insult and condescend when their views do not match our views. For all the Silverwalkers earned reputation for bravery and competence, there is another reputation in the War Room, as well. Feckless, unreasonable children who think only of the now and are incapable of thinking beyond tomorrow. It's no wonder we're "fucking lackies," as Germain says. What else would we be? We can't be worked with, or reasoned with, and expect everyone in the world to conform to our own vision of reality and righteousness? Can you expect us to be anything other than hired hands, in that case? <br/><br/>Al, you scoff at things such as "political will" and "compromise." Is that same fury why you're now a man without a home? Were you exiled from your home for your reasonableness and sensibilities? Is your island home better for your willfulness? Are you? <br/><br/>*sigh* <br/><br/>Sorry, sorry. <Mumbles in Old Ubrekti: "Hard decisions make hard feelings"> The fact is, I don't disagree with you that the plight of the refugees is abyssmal. I know as much about the evils rich visit upon poor as any of you, more than many, I'd wager. But, Omnity's Mercy, even I have sense to deal with people as they are instead of as I demand them to be. You would not expect a lion to exist on tubers or a sparrow to rule the forest, but we expect the same from the Wraths and the Odessans and everyone else. Why? Because of the power of our sheer rightness and righteousness? Hardly.<br/><br/>Maybe Germain was right all along, maybe we should just abandon this place for something more straightforward. I fear that these sort of trials and conflicts are simply beyond our sensibilities, if well within our technical abilities.


; {{Al}} : '''for a moment honestly confused''' A man without a home, dude?  I live anywhere and everywhere.  Nature is my home.  '''gets it''' Oh, wait, you mean ''that?''  I'm not sure what that has to do with helping these refugees, though I'd thank you to keep quiet with your knowledge of my past.  Germain seems to think my plan is a halfway decent one.  I've never claimed to know what motivates most city-dwellers, so it's totally possible that my plan is crazy, but I've been nothing but consistent in my desire to help the refugees.  It makes me sick that the best way to help them is to reinforce their reliance on the Greedy Bastards, but the situation seems to require that I compromise a bit on my "self-righteousnessness and moral certainty."  In the long-term, I'd rather have their good-will than their hatred or apathy.  Honestly, if you find me hard to predict, you haven't been paying much attention to me.  On the one hand, you criticize me for being too blinded to see things any way but my own, but on the other hand you criticize me for being mercurial and difficult to predict.  Dude, you need a break.  Here, smoke this. '''hands Egg some dried leaves wrapped in paper'''


{{Mose}} ''is still fuming. He cannot fathom how Germain could be so condescending as to dismiss something as crucial as the safety of the lives of people in Wydmoor as being some sort of "abstract" notion. For a politician, it's surprising that Germain's wording was exactly the wrong way to handle Mose-- never be dismissive of a righteous dwarf in anger.''

; {{Mose}} : I'm stunned that none of you see how much we have been puppets of whomever is driving these undead members of the Thieves Guilds. They've tricked us down many roads, and been party to trying to poison every man, woman, and child in the city. They were party to dividing the Lizardman tribes and they killed our Odessan prisoners in an effort to mask their involvement. They thwart whatever we do. What is your plan to prevent them from doing it again whatever you intend or plan? Why wouldn't they just ambush us or trap us yet again? Why are you all acting like we can just choose what we do, with these vampires on our backs? Do you know something I don't know that means we shouldn't consider them a dire and imminent threat? <br/><br/>Getting the refugees help, I'm all for. But what is your plan for preventing the vampires from eating the city from within so there is no safe place to take any refugees?

; {{Germain}} : Mose, this is too big a game to play with a child's understanding of the world. There have been a number of convincing arguments about how viable it is for us to take the guild. If you still cannot be convinced that the people of Wydmoor will die and the city walls will fall while we fight a war we can't win, so be it. They are the worst of the city--no doubt about it. Regardless, we don't have the support, information, or power we need to take them and that is all there is to it. I've asked you to leave this to me for now, and while I can explain what I'm going to do, I don't think you'll find it very satisfying. <br><br>Moving on, let's be clear that "opening the gates" is not a literal term--opening a hole in the wall will be even worse than digging a tunnel under it, especially if we announce it first. The brilliant part of what Al said is that we may not have to sneak the refugees around and avoid the Odessans, we just have to convince them our morals are getting the better of us and we are making a stupid strategic decisions. Which shouldn't be hard, because that's what we are talking about doing. <br><br>Now Egg, I'm not so sure that the Wraith's are going to be quite as hard-hearted as you do. They may be as hard-headed, but that's a cerebral approach, which is your speciality. I do think they have hearts that we can appeal to, however, and I'm not entirely sure I want to go down this road without them. Making enemies of the Wraiths is not going to serve anyone's purpose, and bringing the refugees in without warning will go down ''like a warm glass of sow's milk''. I'm sure we'll have to be careful doing it, and we may have to play a little hardball, but I think we can convince the Wraiths to do the right thing.


; GM OOC "Mose, this is too big a game to play with a child's understanding of the world." Some diplomat. If Mose clocks Germain, just send me the rolls via that email thing. (Smiley goes here. Wiki does not cooperate with smileys)


{{Egg}} makes a face. 

; {{Egg}} : Sow's milk. Yuck. You know, when you put it that way, Germain, I'm stricken by something. I'm surprised I didn't see it before, actually. It's really *the same plan* we just made, except with a different accomplice. Earlier you suggested that we could get them into the city if we could get Edrell to let us use the Not-Tunnel. This is essentially the same plan, except we're swapping out the Wraiths for Edrell, yes? I do see your point about not making enemies of the Wraiths, and I hadn't considered that. But just to note: the down side here is if the Wraiths really don't budge, then it's a dead issue. Because, if we do it anyway, after they say no, then that is basically a pretty brazen insult. "Mercy is often softer than sanction," the Gnomes like to say. <br/><br/>Either way, the real difficulty is going to be getting the refugees into a position to get them into the cities. I'm not sure the Odessans can be trusted in negotiations, although I don't think the risk of the Odessans turning against the refugees is a high one, even if we do restore wellness to the camp. From all indications, the diseases were brought down by the Hobgoblins independently, not as a part of the Odessan campaign. Even before the sickness hit, when Onrarch was a relatively stable tent city instead of a graveyard, with a strong cleric at the head of dozens of outriders, the Odessans were content to leave the camp in peace. Hells, occupying the camp and dispursing the refugees would have been strategic on another level, too. I mean, it's no wonder they avoid the place like the... er.. plague now.. err, yeah. But, before that, taking it would have made resupplying the Odessans a thousand times easier. The only reason I can think they didn't, honestly, was because they were trying to uphold to the spirit of the [[Concord of the Highways]]. If so, then at least on some level, the Odessans are trying to maintain proper war decorum. Even when Maggr began his harassing, no retribution has been forthcoming. <br/><br/>Unless, of course, I misunderstood you again and all you meant was that the Silverwalkers specifically trying to move the camp would draw Odessan attention, then.. Well, that's a little bit proud of ourselves, isn't it? *smiles* But maybe not wrong, depending on how they view the migration.

{{talk|Mose can't easily mention these until he gets un-angry, but some other options to consider are here: [[Talk:RP:_Shameless_Self-Promotion#Some_other_OOC_thoughts]]|Mattie}}


;{{Kimika}} kneels down and prays furtively to Alexandria for some sort of help, some sort of answer.:

; {{Quinalin}} : Okay, how about a baby step?  Let's have Germain and Egg dig up any possible useful intel they can on someone in the Thieves Guild worthy of being a revenge target for us, something that is an unexpected twist that won't necessarily just lead down another trapped cellar.<br/><br/>In the meantime, let's take all the cure equipment we got from the sewers and go reconnoiter the refugee camp and do as much good as we can there to see if any of our rescue plans seem any more viable when we are at the front line?

[[Category:Silverwalkers]]