Difference between revisions of "Talk:Professional (3.5e)"

Latest revision as of 20:08, 10 June 2015

Universality

Ga gaaahh gurgle gaaahhh --Msallen

"Civilized people" = everyone in this campaign but Gilerl. -Slitherrr

Heh, he can take it, too. It's to disallow for things like Lizardfolk who clearly have no real industry or economy from which a professional class could grow. -gm

Ha, Gil as a Professional is just mind-bending. -Slitherrr

I was drooling because this opens up a brave new world of obsessing and plotting absurd class combinations for neurotic ole germain --Msallen

Also, I think this was a pretty cool addition to the class. I think realistically its more flavor than substance (although I'm sure a proper munchkin would find it exploitable), but its good flavor. Now I can really consider that level of druid and 2 levels of bard that I've always wanted! --Msallen

Languages

I'm thinking "any" is too broad for languages. There is just no reason for things like dungeonneering or the planes or anything like that. Any suggestions for a long, but logical, list of inclusions? -gm

You mean knowledge, right? In my opinion, Professional pulls the best skill qualities from bard and rogue, but none of the useful secondary skills (dps, utility). I don't think, given how small a role skills play in the majority of D&D play, there is any reason to gimp them. Even in our very skill-heavy game, we are still fighting the vast majority of the time, and fighting yeilds the vast marjoity of the experience. Given that, I think its fine to say that a trait of professionals is that they can have learned all kinds of knowledges in their lives. Its certainly not going to upset any game balance, and keeps the class splashable by arcane classes. --Msallen

Nothing makes a day worse than you being fucking right. -gm

I think this got brought up in the-Skype-call-from-a-past-age, and we came to the same conclusion. Splashability is pretty much priority one for this guy. -Slitherrr

Forum class balance discussion

ENWorld discussion on the class balance:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-legacy-house-rules/275001-professional-homebrew-base-class.html

Quote:

CLEVER TRICKSTER [TRAIT]
You don’t have to be likeable to be tricky, just good at it.
Benefit: Bluff, Disguise, and Use Magic Device depend on intelligence rather than charisma.
Special: Experts may take Clever Trickster as a bonus feat even if they are not 1st level.

Crazy. -Slitherrr

That one caught my eye, not in a bad way. A couple of those feats were cute, many were overpowered, and some were simply too complicated to fuck with. Also, it's pretty clear the guy didn't even read or think too much about it, only used it as a forum to trumpet his own bullshit and infodump his pet feats. (Which, I think, should be expected). I mean, take a look at his taunt. Jesus. Complexity is NOT A DESIRED FEATURE.

"Also, it's pretty clear the guy didn't even read or think too much about it, only used it as a forum to trumpet his own bullshit and infodump his pet feats." QFT. -Slitherrr

Well, his first paragraph was marginally useful, although something we had thought of already. --Msallen

His own comments were particularly uninspired and not very helpful.

I doubt much useful, or even interesting, will come out of that thread, honestly. It's Matt's first post, which he made right after signing up, about some pet project. I'll be surprised if it gets another comment, even - those are not the sorts of posts people flock to, at least in my experience with other online communities.

Which is kind of a shame, because this is a mighty good class. -gm

I'll bump it strategically, but the forum is pretty dead anyways. There were actually a lot of classes very much like the profession, some which even got bonus skill feats and leadership at 6. So its hardly an original idea, although I think ours is one of the best. --Msallen

http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-legacy-house-rules/86539-links-classes-races-forum.html

Balance and tweak discussion

Slith, there is an ongoing discussion about professional that you should be included in and weigh in on. We have a pretty solid second option for this class where we drop evasion, bump the hp to d8, and give medium armor prof (and probably switch ref save to fort). There are a few reasons to do this:

• Jones thinks evasion is the purview of the rogue class (much like the trap/umd skills that were omitted here)
• I think it makes the class more splashable for rogues, while boosting its value to combat classes based on a little more resilience.
• Evasion has a supernatural flavor, while armor prof has a training/education flavor. I think we mitigate this by making the professions "exceptionally attentive" language.

The cons are:

• Is it too powerful?
• Does it mess with any of our respective character plans?
• Which makes more sense?

• Compared with a rogue, the prof is probably a little better for skills. He has a wider range of skills, plus the copious skill feats, but he is missing some of the really strong rogue skills. In terms of combat, however, the prof is severely lacking in DPS, and a little worse off for magical and AoE attacks (although probably not martial combat, where the armor will help).

• Compared with a cleric, the prof is a little worse in combat. He has the same HP and damage (cleric weapon restrictions are mostly flavor), but he has more limited armor selection. Which means the Prof basically trades the clerics great casting abilities for great skills, which may be a poor trade. Of course, cleric is the most powerful class in 3.5 by a pretty big margin, so lets keep that in mind.

• Give a +3 bonus instead of +2

• Make target flat-footed until beginning of next turn

• Grant temporary hit points

• Perform 2/3/4 aid another actions as a full action

We might also grant special abilities from above based on skills and not on AC10 attack rolls, but I'm not sure its worth the complication.

• Hit Dice: d8
• Armor: Medium and Light
• Remove Evasion, Improved Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, Improved Uncanny Dodge, and bonus feats on levels 7 and 13.
• Add ability: 'Tactical Proficiency': At level four, and every fourth level thereafter, gain the ability to use another Aid Another action each round. This action can be used in any way that Aid Another could generally be used. All Aid Another actions in a round can only be used on a single target. Bonuses from multiple Aid Another actions do not stack. Using any number of Aid Another actions is a standard action, and the actions must all be performed at the same time (i.e., no movement between actions). At levels 2, 7 and 13, the Professional can augment his Aid Another action by choosing from the following list:
  • Rallying Boost: The target gains Professional's Charisma bonus temporary hitpoints for one round. After the round, the hit points are lost. If this puts the target into the negatives, he suffers all applicable penalties. This ability may only be in effect once per target--later uses of Rallying Boost on the same target before it expires will maintain the ability, rather than adding more hit points. This ability cannot be used on allies who are unable to hear the Professional (by virtue of deafness, unconsciousness, or similar effect)
  • Snap Out of It: A designated, adjacent ally gains an additional Will save against a mind-affecting ability. This ability can only be used once per round, and only on the same round, or the round immediately after the mind-affecting ability takes effect.
  • Look, Over Here!: For one round, a designated enemy that the Professional threatens becomes flat-footed with respect to a designated ally, removing the enemy's Dex bonus to AC (and, hence, allowing sneak attacks) on the ally's round.
  • Competence: On an Aid Another in Combat action, add a +3 to the ally's attack roll or AC, rather than +2.
  • Vulnerability Guard: Prevent an opponent from making a single opportunity attack against the ally before the start of your next turn. This may only be used once per turn.
• As part of Professional Development, the Professional may instead choose to augment his Aid Another ability, as above.
• As part of Professional Development, add the following option: You Can Do Better: On a successful Aid Another action involving a skill check, you may instead opt to make a check against DC 20 to allow the ally being aided to reroll and keep the better of two results. This may be used only once for the task in question, and cannot be used on any check whose result is normally kept secret (Spot checks, Move Silently checks, and so on).
• Remove "Roguish Knowledge" as a Professional Development option.

• Allow an ally adjacent to you to make a 5 foot step without provoking an attack of opportunity (possibly has be adjacent to you before and after step?)

5-foot-step as part of a larger move, I suppose? -Slitherrr

• Prevent an opponent from making a single opportunity attack before the start of your next turn
• Aid checks (in skill or combat) against DC 15/20/25 to grant +3/4/5 bonuses (really this just a different phrasing of suggestions we all made)

WRT multiple "aid another" uses in a single turn... I would suggest modeling it after extra attacks gained in melee. Ie. The player can take a full action and use all his aids and take a 5-foot step, or can take a move action and make a single aid. Along that line, I would say gets extra aids at 6/11/16 when a war would get extra attacks, or at 8/15 with the prof's extra attacks. Also, maybe allow mixing aids and attacks in the later case?

--- From GM:

• Balance Issues. These abilities are, on balance, WAY overpowered. With no cooldown or use limits, this class becomes a major spoiler.
  • Abilities should be cantrip/slight advantage level. Major enchancements must remain the pervue of caster classes. Something that gives a short term CH bonus to HP might be acceptable, but something that gives 1d8+CHR is clearly TOO powerful. (Yes, durations are longer on spells. However, spells by their very nature have an opportunity cost balancer built in as you can only cast a small number of whatever spell we're talking about, and only by not preparing some OTHER spell.)
  • Likewise with the "Snap Out Of It", which is not only better hands down than Remove Fear, but also a MAJOR spoiler for any and all caster classes. Repeated retries, *AT A BONUS*? That's a vanilla ability that shuts down even the highest level spells. Clearly not what the class is designed around, or even thematically proper.
  • I don't mind aid checks, or even a professional who gives better bonuses, +4? +5? Clearly outside the realm of balance.
  • The goal should be to make the Professional more SURVIVABLE at combat, not necessarily more THREATENING, at least in my mind. Small bonuses to allies is a PERFECT fit, but the trouble is going to be finding (a) appropriate abilities that are (b) balanced.
  • Buffs need to be single target. Party buffs are the realm of the Bard.
  • "Interrupt Abilities" and other rule benders should stay in Prestige Classes. Things that break the flow of combat, allow move/action interruptions, etc. (such as the Traveler's abilities) should be the rarest of rare abilities, for reasons of both balance and flow.

Some ideas I floated to Slitherrr:

• For Lvl 2 and 4 abilities.
  • INT bonus to AC.
  • INT bonus to HP.
  • Stumbling Block: Usually classes that get weird attribute/status crossovers have several prime stats. (Monk, Paladin, Swashbuckler) Professional essentially is INT primary, CHR secondary, and so this could be a severe balance issue.)
• Post Lvl 6: More powerful single target buffs that can ONLY affect Cohorts.
• Improved Flanking (does not have to be adjacent to give and receive flank bonuses)
• The rerolling skills ability has grown on me, perhaps as a sort of "Improved Aid Another". Instead of a DC 10 to give a +2, hit a DC 20 or 25 to two checks, taking the greater. (Now, of course, the professional would have to have his own ranks in the skill to aid). This sort of goes counter to my "too many rolls" rule, seemingly, but it's only in COMBAT that tons of extra rolls should be avoided.
• Upending Slitherrr's suggestion - Rather than having the professional give a single bonus to multiple people in a round as he grows, allow him to give multiple small bonuses to a single target in a round as he grows.

On that note, another entirely different option for an int/char class is to just give out spells like a bard/ranger/paladin. Then we don't have to come up with a crazy new system, just shoose appropriate spells. --Msallen 14:59, 12 January 2010 (EST)

In your heart of hearts, you know spells do not belong as part of this class. -gm

Yes and no :) No, because if we end up reinventing spells through some complicated and highly-flexible prof dev., we might as well just re-use something that is already there. Spells get re-flavored so much for different classes that we can just do it here--the prof's spells are based on his supernatural charm or something. Yes because I hate playing spellcasters in any pre-4 D&D version! --Msallen 15:13, 12 January 2010 (EST)

And I just hate playing spellcasters, period.-Slitherrr

Ha, spellcasting FTW! "Spells get re-flavored so much for different classes that we can just do it here." Yeah, for classes where it makes sense to give them access to divine or arcane spells. Some classes maybe mimic specific spell effects, such as the pass without trace ability of Wild Gnomes, but that's an entirely different creature from having access to a pick-and-choose spell list. Also: You are mixing up GERMAIN or the DRAGOMAN PRESTIGE with the PROFESSIONAL, there's no "supernatural charm" there. Reread your own introduction to the class. -gm

It does seem, though, that we have a good thing coalescing here. Here's a rough outline that Jones will probably like:

Professional: Lots of skills, mostly talky stuff. Enough beef to survive battles, particularly if splashed with battle classes. (My main problem with Evasion, personally, is not that it's the Rogue's thing, but that it imposes that light armor limitation, making this harder to do). Good Will saves fit with the talky stuff (when persuading, it's always a good idea not to be easily persuaded). Good Reflex saves fit with the "staying alive" stuff. The class only fits in a campaign where the GM is willing to make encounters that have at least some hope of a Diplomacy option, because unlike every core D&D class, the Professional has pretty much no saving grace in battle, to make up for how awesome he is outside of it (this is Jonesy's interpretation, and I'm inclined to agree. Diplomacy, while so very heavily dependent on the GM for effectiveness (it has SO MANY caveats on its use, like taking a minute for each check, being effectively only one-use, and not working on things that are actively trying to kill you), is very easy to stack with synergies from feats and skills). Being able to acquire languages with very little cost is helpful in a lot of ways, but again, only if the GM lets it (it's very easy to plop the characters in a situations where none of them speak the languages in question, with a minimum of hand-waving). Basically, it's the ultimate GM trust class.

Throughout development: Bonus feats that enhance skillmonkey and talky stuff. Levels 2-6: Cantrip-level Aid Another ability enhancements, usable on any ally. -Slitherrr Level 6: Leadership (and the cohorts) come in as an ability that mitigates the fact that the Professional's development makes him severely unsurvivable at higher levels (not enough combat feats to ramp up melee damage, no sneak attack, no higher-level spells, no damage resistance or rage, etc etc etc). The Aid Another enhancements start becoming more powerful, but only work on the cohort (we need a hand-wave for this). I could definitely see some of the Aid Another things sticking around as abilities usable on everyone (the skill check reroll ability is only useful on non-cohorts, for example, because if the GM has any sense, the cohort's skillset will be dramatically different from the Professional's). The Professional Developments, then, should work to further the Professional in his focus, or fill in some gaps. -Slitherrr

Survivability?

So now that we've had some time to think about this, some questions:

• Do we want to only focus on improving the survivability of the prof?
• Do we want to only focus on some sort of "improved aid another" set of abilities?
• Would giving more aid another abilities be enough if we made survivability changes?

--Msallen 09:23, 14 January 2010 (EST)

• Yes-ish, but not entirely. We are *tweaking* not *rebuilding*. Evasion tree does not belong, so we need to find something comparable to swap out. I think the replacement should focus on survivability, but that does not exclude other additions or tweaks.
• Maybe, if it can be balanced. I like the idea, but I'm loathe to rebuild the class from the ground up.
• Probably, yeah.

-gm

Well, evasion goes. Uncanny dodge may or may not. I'm thinking we should go the round of aid another increases at whatever levels are sensible (perhaps, 7, 13, 20, so 4 Aid Another actions total?), with, say, choices between two abilities junctures. If we follow Monk/Ranger conventions, then that gives choices at 1,2 and 6 (then 11 and 17 for similar choices), but with the bonus feat lists, it might be more sensible to have fewer aid another selections (depending on how powerful the aid another stuff is). I understand Jones's perspective on having the stuff that affects everyone be, say, cantrip-level stuff if it's in combat, UNLESS we keep the Prof's hp at 6/level and armor at light. If we go the latter route, we're treading strongly into Bard territory, so I prefer the former.

SO.

I propose a choice between these at level 2:

• Snap out of it!: Within a round of an adjacent ally being affected by an enchantment, add (something--Charisma, maybe? Charisma + half Prof level?) to the ally's Will Save roll against that enchantment. If the result is over the DC to save, reduce the duration of the effect by one round. This ability may only be attempted once per enchantment.
• Just Hold On a Little Longer: For (some number) rounds, give a dying, adjacent ally (some number) of temporary hitpoints. The ally will be stabilized for this period of time. If the temporary hitpoints put the ally at 0 or greater hit points, he becomes Disabled for as long as his hit points are not negative. Once the hit points expire, the ally is no longer treated as stabilized unless he has been treated. (This is worded in a complicated manner, but basically, give your guy a couple of extra rounds at death's door, and possibly give him some time to move out of the line of fire).

Then, at level 4, lose Uncanny Dodge and gain this:

• Aid Another gives a +3 to attack rolls rather than +2

Level 6 he gets Leadership, and a choice between cohort-specific Aid Another abilities to go with it, like, say, the skill reroll ability, or the stronger temp hitpoints thing, or something else. Level 8 gets Improved Flanking (rather than Improved Uncanny Dodge). Then we're looking at another Aid Another choice somewhere in between 10 and 20, or possibly two, to keep him alive at higher levels (since his dps will be dropping off sharply in this range, compared to classes that actually beat things up for a living).

How's that sound so far? If that's way too much of a rebuild for gm's taste, then, well, I'm not really sure where to go, mostly because I can't think of a good drop-in replacement for Evasion, and partly because I'm just enamored with this whole Aid Another thing.

-Slitherrr

I like the Aid Another thing in its current incarnation, as well, and it's some good flavor all around and can be worked in somewhere, either as a character ability or even a feat. (Or, best of both worlds, a feat that is part of the professional's bonus feat list) And, yes, even those aid another skills are a lot more balanced. (Though honestly i think a second will or Will -2 or will -4 save to shrug off the effect would be easier and more useful than a save with a huge bonus to reduce the duration by around.)( I think D&D trys to stay out of the realm of having effects than change the duration of someone else's effect in progress. If only for bookkeeping sake. However, yeah, at the end of the day, this convention was called to deal with low level survivability without Evasion/Improved Evasion and it feels like we've gone far afield. Maybe there's nothing that can be done and we're stuck with evasion. That's sub optimal but acceptable if that's all we can do. -gm

I think we should haggle this out in a call! --Msallen 13:21, 14 January 2010 (EST)

I'm okay with that. I'll try to be available later. Skype name is tehwilsonat0r. -Slitherrr

I can skip the gym tonight for this call. What time/zone? I usually don't get home before 7 EST, but I can for this. I worked late last night anyways. Also could do MLK or daytime over the weekend.

PS. read the top of the edit page: WARNING: This page is 31 kilobytes long; some browsers may have problems editing pages approaching or longer than 32kb. Please consider breaking the page into smaller sections. --Msallen 13:27, 14 January 2010 (EST)

I am acidslug on skype, but time must be scheduled in advance if I'm to have any hope of attending.

I shortened a bunch of stuff at the top, keeping some bullet points for reference. If we're really interested exact content of things removed, we can look at previous revisions. -Slitherrr

Matt, I suggested some other times before you borked the page. Any of those work for you? --Msallen 14:39, 14 January 2010 (EST)

What were the times? -gm

Three posts up. Otherwise, I can do anytime MLK and sunday morn/afternoon, although probably not on Sat. --Msallen 09:26, 15 January 2010 (EST)

Ha. MLK afternoon is great for me. -gm

I'll be interviewing earlier that morning at a place that takes roughly an hour to drive to, so twoish or slightly later is probably best for me. -Slitherrr

Oh, wow. Good luck! As Mister Doctor Allen there for tips, he's only ever had one interview in his whole life and he got the job. ;) -gm

Hey! I had 3 interviews in 3 consecutive days, and each was 5+ hours! And I only got offers from 2!

Good luck Slith. Make sure you let them know how awesome you are ;) --Msallen 15:18, 15 January 2010 (EST)

I'll make sure to stick this wiki on my resume as a reference. Heh.-Slitherrr

I'll be a reference! I'd say the most glorious things about you! --Msallen 16:26, 15 January 2010 (EST)

Shoot. One of my buddies at work want to go hiking on MLK. Since I don't get out of the concrete anthill very often, I'm probably going to go. I can do early evening, or tomorrow (sunday). Otherwise, we'll have to find a weeknight or do next weekend unless trip gets canceled :( --Msallen

My availability is pretty good through the weekdays. -Slitherrr

I have very spotty availability during the weekdays, especially in the evening, though my late afternoons are generally free with a day or two of lead time. -gm

Any day better than others? I can't do Thurs, and Fri is always tough, but the other days are free at the moment. --Msallen

It's all the same to me until the weekend, when my availability becomes very good in the early, to very bad in the late. -Slitherrr

Master class from War of the Lance

I've been more and more smitten with Professional as I try to port this crazy class into Hero Lab. Anyway, you guys may have already looked at these but there are some cool "knacks" (as they call them) in War of the Lance for their Master class, which is a lot like Professional. That class picks a focus (either crafting, performing, professional, or sage -- with a 2nd focus at level 7) and the knacks are themed along those lines. It almost looks like a decent class. A few of the knacks are below and might be interesting, especially the combat ones:

Complementary Scholarship (Knack: Master/Sage)

Apply understanding of existing
knowledge to other fields. Substitute ranks in one Knowledge 
for ranks in another Knowledge in which he has no
ranks on a two for one basis for the purposes of making
Knowledge checks. For example, 10 ranks in Knowledge 
(nobility) may attempt a Knowledge (history) check as 
if he had 5 ranks in that skill.

Exploit Weakness (Knack: Master/Sage)

Exploit Weakness: After 1 round of combat, the master
sage can designate one opponent and try to find ways to
gain an advantage by using brains over brawn. The master
sage uses a move action and makes a DC 15 Intelligence
check with a bonus equal to half his class level. If the
check succeeds, for the rest of the combat the master sage
uses his Intelligence bonus instead of either Strength
or Dexterity bonus on attack rolls as he finds ways to
outthink his opponent and notices weaknesses in his
opponent’s fighting style.

Tactical Advantage (Knack: Master/Sage)

Prereq: Exploit Weakness. 
Use understanding of creature’s recorded weaknesses. 
Choose a Knowledge when selecting this knack. Once per encounter, a master
make a Knowledge check (DC 10 + creature’s
HD) to gain a +2 bonus to attack rolls against a creature
covered by the selected Knowledge skill for the remainder
of the encounter. Knowledge (arcana) for
dragons, constructs, and magical beasts; [etc etc etc]
Knowledge (religion) for undead;
Knowledge (local) for humanoids and regional cultures.
Can take more than once. Each time pick a different Knowledge.

Knack summaries

Crafting

• Applied Craftsmanship: (like Complementary Scholarship for crafts)
• Item of Distinction: Reduce cost of masterwork
• Word of Mouth: Earn twice as much money with a week's work crafting
• Item of Renown: Double-effective Masterwork items (e.g. +2 mw swords)
• Item of Fame: Three-times effective (+3 mw)
• Item of Glory: Four-times effective (+4 mw)
• Item of Legend: Five-times effective (+5 mw)

Performing

• Celebrity: Earn twice as much money per week
• Coordinate: +1 attack/skill for allies (30' radius, DC 10 check)
• Inspiration: +2 morale bonuses (full rd, DC 15)
• Greater Inspiration: +1 morale (stacks with above)
• Compelling Performance: Despair -2 morale, Hope +2 morale, Rage: +2 StrCon, -1 AC
• Virtuoso: (like Complementary Scholarship for perform)

Professional

• Fast-Talk: Add level/2 to Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise
• Bluster: Bluff/tilt enemy for -1 penalty to all rolls. Can select more than once for extra -1
• Jack of All Trades: (like Complementary Scholarship for perform)
• Loyal Clientele: Earn twice as much money with week of profession
• Skilled Team: Like Leadership but with no cohort, all NPC Experts

Sage

• Academic Reputation: Add Int to Bluff, Diplo, Intimid checks for Knowledge. Earn money as a scholar.
• Complementary Scholarship (see above)
• Exploit Weakness: (see above)
• Linguist: Can roughly understand languages with Int check alone
• Lore: Bardic knowledge sort of thing
• Tactical Advantage (see above)

Some Master discussion

I paraphrased these a bit. But thought they might be interesting as special ability options or bonus feat options for this class. -Mattie

Pretty sweet. These would have been good to have when we were hammering this class out, and might still be viable for professional developments or the level 8 class feature (aid another). --Msallen

Yeah, I was thinking they might be good for the Professional Development portion-- this is almost exactly how they were handled for Master. In that class, you got knack, feat, nothing, knack, feat, nothing every three levels throughout Master progression. Sounds somewhat similar to the pro-dev concept here, though you start getting the knacks much earlier on. Just looking at the Master progression (to the right), Professional appears to be a much more powerful class than Master. It only got d6 hit points, even. -Mattie

Its probably a wash on power. These knacks look to be a good bit stronger than the skill feats or special abilities the prof gets, especially since you get to min-max your choices regarding them. They also seem to confer some strong combat abilities, which probably more than makes up for the profs hp and armor advantages. Still, I like the way the Master looks--we probably could have just used that if we'd known about it. --Msallen

This. I couldn't disagree more about their levels: Professional is obviously the weaker class, IMHO, because the "knacks" seem designed in many cases to make up for the otherwise combat pitifulness of the class. (Subbing Int bonus for strength, etc.) Nothing really improves the Professional's combat abilities, save the option of making a combat cohort and being a petomancer. -gm

Well, the ones I quoted initially were the best combat ones, really. I wanted to showcase those. Most of the others are non-combat. I'm also adding those above for reference. (Maybe they'd make sense in a professional-themed prestige class or for pro-dev options, etc.) -Mattie

True, but the fact that combat options *even exist* as knacks already puts the master in a different realm than the professional in terms of power and balance. The Master can opt to be pitiful at combat, but the professional can't really comparably chose bonus feats to increase prowess. -gm

I don't know the details of the master class, but my hunch is that it probably is proficient in light armor and simple weapons. If so, the prof has more hp, better ref saves, better weapons and armor, and an AC bonus, so there is a lot going for the prof. Not as much on the dps side as the master gets, I agree, but the prof is probably a good bit more resilent and has a couple things going for it that the master doesn't.

Interestingly enough, the nature of the Prof's bonus AC means he either focuses on either Int or Dex, or he wears heavy armor, but not both (something I discovered when Kib threw away a set of +1 chain in favor of a regular MW breastplate). It means that the Prof having both heavy armor and the int bonus is a flexibility bonus rather than two abilities working in synergy, and is another attribute that makes this class pretty much perfect for multiclass. -Slitherrr