Difference between revisions of "Talk:Deific Vengeance"

Revision as of 15:11, 23 March 2011

Description

You cry out to your god, enumerating transgressions and crimes of a creature and seek your deity to exact punishment on them. (Their alignment is irrelevant.) The divine might of the angry god exacts this justice in the form of an acute, divine strike on the target. This damage hits unerringly and for 1d6 points per two caster levels (maximum 5d6). For an undead target, the damage is increased to 1d6 points per caster level (max 10d6). Damage is reduced by half upon succeeding a Will saving throw.

Source: Complete Divine, p161 (reworded slightly, but effect is identical)

DM Approved?

This spell, of course, is subject to GM veto, but I figure most stuff from WotC books or Dragon are ok? I want to check because there are also a few (mediocre-to-okay) Druid spells in Complete Divine that we might want to bring, and 1-2 Paladin spells that have their uses, too. -Mattie

Yeah, generally speaking WotC and Dragon are both considered as close to canonical as you can get. Mongoose Publishing, Swords and Sorcery, etc. less so. Still, I'd rather you put the spell and stuff on the talk page and leave the actual page blank until spells get approved. I think having players add and suggest is a great, I am just leery of confusing our poor spellcasters with what is and is not yet approved. -gm

Cool, thanks for the clarification on process for DM approval. Counter-proposal: What if we create the pages as normal but we put {{pendingapproval}} template? It would look like this:

Note:

This topic is pending approval and should not be used.

Could we instead post them as a normal spell/feat/class and put that bright red above it? If you reject it, just delete it. The cool thing about this process is that you get this awesome page to reference: Category:Pending Approval -Mattie

Spell Strength

It's an... odd spell on many levels, though, and I can't say I'm a *huge* fan of it. Direct, unerring damage is not, generally, the purview of the cleric class. Will save for half is just a very .... strange.... save. Also, 60 points of max damage against undead from a second level spell doesn't really strike me as all that balanced.

I mean, I think this spell feels *at least* as good as most of the 2nd level sor/wiz damage spells, and that's clearly not so great from a class balance point of view.

I can't disagree with you, but to play devil's advocate: The wording I picked ("unerring") isn't how they wrote it. For the spirit of the spell, see the screenshots for the actual wording that Complete Divine, Spell Compendium, and DDO use. I changed it to avoid copyright, but the original wording seems spiritually good (better for a paladin/judgement spell, IMHO):

So Helen and I love this for flavor. As for damage, it's solid, indeed. I wouldn't put it on par with Sorc/Wiz (searing ray averaging 1d6/level, right?), but it is strong for Cleric which is an exception for most of the added divine content from WotC (probably to boost FS class). Note that undead seem to have stronger will saves than anything else, so it's not going to be the world's best spell against them. Range is really tight, too. -Mattie

So it's here (and because numbers are my thing),

• Scorching ray (level 2 spell) is 1d6 per (level + 1) in groups of four (4d6 at level 3, 8d6 level 7, 12d6 level 11 [max]), at close range, not unerring (ranged touch attack)
• The canonical unerring spell, magic missile, is 1d4+1 per level, at ridiculous range, with no save, but with a hard counter (shield), and is level 1. It's then 2.5 damage per level, compared to 1.75 for deific vengeance against non-undead (3.5 vs those).
• Acid arrow, 2d4 + 1 plus (2d4 + 1) per three levels (up to six), over time, level 2, giving 6.5 + (2.5)/level, with caveats (acid can be neutralized and whatnot).
• Burning sphere, 2d6/level with caveats galore, level 2.

Deific Vengeance doesn't compete too crazily in this sphere. Against anything but undead, it's outclassed pretty easily by magic missile in every respect--range, damage, versatility--except specifically in the case of shield. Against undead, it has the Will save issue mentioned above, but is otherwise better (which falls within the Cleric's wheelhouse). Far be it from me to give any more power to the most OP class in the game, but I think this spell doesn't do that too horribly much. -Slitherrr

Ah, math, the unerring language of logic. I suppose I can't argue with that, and 2 is sort of a weak level for cleric'n anyway. Sounds good. And, yes, generally stuff from WotC sources will get favorable nods from me, but I want to limit the influx of new mechanics to a pace that I can keep track of. I still get too many "wait, what?" moments from the druid. -gm

Also, how does *not having a damage type* fit into those calcs? I really don't like that there is no tag on that damage, not even S/P/B. -gm

More comparison spells

Just to compare for this spell, here are some other decent cleric damage spells at level two from WotC. It's clear they want to give Clerics a tad of a boost in damage ability.

When I see a damage spell that says "Clr 2, Sor/Wiz 2" all kinds of alarms start going off. Now, that doesn't *necessarily* mean I'll be against such spells, but I'd almost certainly make it Clr 3, Sor/Wiz 2. If it's a balanced to be a 2nd arcane, there are no circumstances where it would also fit as a 2nd divine. I mean, Fireball (3rd) outclasses Flame Strike (5th) in many respect, and most respects until such levels that an arcane isn't even thinking about third level spell slots. Probably worth noting at this point, too, that cleric's don't really *get* damage spells until the upper levels, because I don't think is is wise (the hallmark of the class) to give destructive power to neophytes and middle managers. Low level clerics already get to cast wearing plate mail, attack with a great BaB and the ability to boost all their important stats, all while being able to heal. And turn undead. I don't feel awful that their spell slots don't also mete the beat (tm). -gm

I'm less opposed to these becoming Sor/Wiz spells, and I reserve the right to have adepts shoot them at you as Lvl+1 Spells. >:) ON NOTICE. -gm

Very good points all. The Clr 2, Sorc/Wiz 2 thing does set off some alarm bells with me, too-- pretty much all of these examples look like that. Deific Vengeance seems more on-flavor for clerics than any of the below ones. -Mattie

Indeed. I'm with you on DV, too, I'm just concerned because it's the only thing I can think of that does generic damage. Not even weapon damage or slashing damage. Just "damage."

That's easy to fix. Would it make more sense as "force" damage, or some sort of "necromantic" damage? -Slitherrr

Force bypasses DR, so we can safely assume that is right out. -gm

In DDO they made it Good damage: http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Spell:Deific_Vengeance -Mattie

Hmmm. Then only good people can use it, though. Perhaps "alignment" damage, with "alignment" being one of your two alignment types. (Chaotic, Lawful, Good, and Evil), which means a true neutral couldn't cast this. Which, you know, I'm ok with. -gm

Also, ever since Herdgate back at the temple, I've thought about tagging some of the wiki spells as "Rare" or "Difficult" and require time and spellcraft checks to unlock them. Because I'm a prick, but it's probably to late to clamp close that door. -gm

Maybe some of the massive/war spells should require more substantial material components in addition to the time required? I mean, Stoneskin is nice at 250gp/pop... yet they can get 90 wolves for 54 rounds for a negligible fee? Either way, I'm not looking forward to the day when Summon Herd is cast on us, so I'm 100% in favor of nerfing it before it hurts someone important. ;) -Mattie

This actually crossed my mind. The solution, which you have just reminded me of, is simple and elegant. Changes the entire way the spell is approached by PCs, while still leaving it open for me to drop. Did you Guess? . . . . .

Minor. Experience. Cost.

Effectively no cost for NPCs, permanent level-gaining opportunity cost for PCs? Works better in this campaign with the XP-gaining achievements around, but still seems like it would either be pretty harsh or negligible with no in-between. -Slitherrr

Frost Breath

This is from the Spell Compendium. 30ft cone ain't bad at all, so I'll probably seek approval for this, too. :) I think this used to be called Frost Fingers before they reprinted it.

FROST BREATH
Evocation [Cold]
Level: Clr 2, Drd 2, Sorc/Wiz 2
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 30 ft.
Area: Cone-shaped burst
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: Yes
Giving a forceful exhale across your cupped
hand, your breath shoots forth tinged with
frost and crystals of ice.
You breathe a cone of intense cold at
your foes. The spell deals 1d4 points of
cold damage per two caster levels (maximum
5d4). In addition, all creatures
damaged by the frost breath that fail
their Reflex save are dazed for 1 round
by the sudden shock of cold.
Material Component: Three drops
of water or fragments of ice (which
are held in a cupped palm and blown
toward the target).

Cloud of Knives

The flavor of this one is a bit odd and I'm not as keen on it as I was when I first read it. (I think Spiritual Hammer holds this spot well, and this doesn't seem a good Sorc/Wiz spell anyway.) I still haven't gotten over the idea that Clerics shouldn't use pointy things. Cloud of Knives does scale well, though. This is from PHB2, so I'm kinda surprised I had never heard of it before.

Not unerring, but the attack is + level + abilitymod, so it's less damage but slightly better to-hit than Spiritual Weapon (though now I'm seeing Spiritual Weapon as a better spell than I recall). A level 9 cleric would effectively get 9 individual rolls of 1d6+3 damage (at surely +12 to hit). It can even be enhanced to use silver knives. -Mattie

Venomous Volley

From Dragon 330:

Lava Missile

Probably worth seeking approval for, too, but it's easy to argue that this isn't in-flavor for our world. It is quite nice, though. From WotC, FRealms book Serpent World:

This hints that WotC is okay with damage spells being 1-level weaker than mage spells in terms of damage (though with saving throws). Yet catching people on fire is rather cool, too. -Mattie