Talk:Deific Vengeance

Now you must make a template for new domains and add the purification domain. Such is the cost of approval. ;) -gm

Will do! -Mattie

Spell Strength

It's an... odd spell on many levels, though, and I can't say I'm a *huge* fan of it. Direct, unerring damage is not, generally, the purview of the cleric class. Will save for half is just a very .... strange.... save. Also, 60 points of max damage against undead from a second level spell doesn't really strike me as all that balanced.

I mean, I think this spell feels *at least* as good as most of the 2nd level sor/wiz damage spells, and that's clearly not so great from a class balance point of view.

I can't disagree with you, but to play devil's advocate: The wording I picked ("unerring") isn't how they wrote it. For the spirit of the spell, see the screenshots for the actual wording that Complete Divine, Spell Compendium, and DDO use. I changed it to avoid copyright, but the original wording seems spiritually good (better for a paladin/judgement spell, IMHO):

So Helen and I love this for flavor. As for damage, it's solid, indeed. I wouldn't put it on par with Sorc/Wiz (searing ray averaging 1d6/level, right?), but it is strong for Cleric which is an exception for most of the added divine content from WotC (probably to boost FS class). Note that undead seem to have stronger will saves than anything else, so it's not going to be the world's best spell against them. Range is really tight, too. -Mattie

So it's here (and because numbers are my thing),

• Scorching ray (level 2 spell) is 1d6 per (level + 1) in groups of four (4d6 at level 3, 8d6 level 7, 12d6 level 11 [max]), at close range, not unerring (ranged touch attack)
• The canonical unerring spell, magic missile, is 1d4+1 per level, at ridiculous range, with no save, but with a hard counter (shield), and is level 1. It's then 2.5 damage per level, compared to 1.75 for deific vengeance against non-undead (3.5 vs those).
• Acid arrow, 2d4 + 1 plus (2d4 + 1) per three levels (up to six), over time, level 2, giving 6.5 + (2.5)/level, with caveats (acid can be neutralized and whatnot).
• Burning sphere, 2d6/level with caveats galore, level 2.

Deific Vengeance doesn't compete too crazily in this sphere. Against anything but undead, it's outclassed pretty easily by magic missile in every respect--range, damage, versatility--except specifically in the case of shield. Against undead, it has the Will save issue mentioned above, but is otherwise better (which falls within the Cleric's wheelhouse). Far be it from me to give any more power to the most OP class in the game, but I think this spell doesn't do that too horribly much. -Slitherrr

Ah, math, the unerring language of logic. I suppose I can't argue with that, and 2 is sort of a weak level for cleric'n anyway. Sounds good. And, yes, generally stuff from WotC sources will get favorable nods from me, but I want to limit the influx of new mechanics to a pace that I can keep track of. I still get too many "wait, what?" moments from the druid. -gm

Also, how does *not having a damage type* fit into those calcs? I really don't like that there is no tag on that damage, not even S/P/B. -gm

More comparison spells

Just to compare for this spell, here are some other decent cleric damage spells at level two from WotC. It's clear they want to give Clerics a tad of a boost in damage ability.

When I see a damage spell that says "Clr 2, Sor/Wiz 2" all kinds of alarms start going off. Now, that doesn't *necessarily* mean I'll be against such spells, but I'd almost certainly make it Clr 3, Sor/Wiz 2. If it's a balanced to be a 2nd arcane, there are no circumstances where it would also fit as a 2nd divine. I mean, Fireball (3rd) outclasses Flame Strike (5th) in many respect, and most respects until such levels that an arcane isn't even thinking about third level spell slots. Probably worth noting at this point, too, that cleric's don't really *get* damage spells until the upper levels, because I don't think is is wise (the hallmark of the class) to give destructive power to neophytes and middle managers. Low level clerics already get to cast wearing plate mail, attack with a great BaB and the ability to boost all their important stats, all while being able to heal. And turn undead. I don't feel awful that their spell slots don't also mete the beat (tm). -gm

I'm less opposed to these becoming Sor/Wiz spells, and I reserve the right to have adepts shoot them at you as Lvl+1 Spells. >:) ON NOTICE. -gm

Very good points all. The Clr 2, Sorc/Wiz 2 thing does set off some alarm bells with me, too-- pretty much all of these examples look like that. Deific Vengeance seems more on-flavor for clerics than any of the below ones. -Mattie

Indeed. I'm with you on DV, too, I'm just concerned because it's the only thing I can think of that does generic damage. Not even weapon damage or slashing damage. Just "damage."

That's easy to fix. Would it make more sense as "force" damage, or some sort of "necromantic" damage? -Slitherrr

Force bypasses DR, so we can safely assume that is right out. -gm

In DDO they made it Good damage: http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Spell:Deific_Vengeance -Mattie

Hmmm. Then only good people can use it, though. Perhaps "alignment" damage, with "alignment" being one of your two alignment types. (Chaotic, Lawful, Good, and Evil), which means a true neutral couldn't cast this. Which, you know, I'm ok with. -gm

Also, ever since Herdgate back at the temple, I've thought about tagging some of the wiki spells as "Rare" or "Difficult" and require time and spellcraft checks to unlock them. Because I'm a prick, but it's probably to late to clamp close that door. -gm

Maybe some of the massive/war spells should require more substantial material components in addition to the time required? I mean, Stoneskin is nice at 250gp/pop... yet they can get 90 wolves for 54 rounds for a negligible fee? Either way, I'm not looking forward to the day when Summon Herd is cast on us, so I'm 100% in favor of nerfing it before it hurts someone important. ;) -Mattie

This actually crossed my mind. The solution, which you have just reminded me of, is simple and elegant. Changes the entire way the spell is approached by PCs, while still leaving it open for me to drop. Did you Guess? . . . . .

Minor. Experience. Cost.

Effectively no cost for NPCs, permanent level-gaining opportunity cost for PCs? Works better in this campaign with the XP-gaining achievements around, but still seems like it would either be pretty harsh or negligible with no in-between. -Slitherrr

The curtain comment disappeared, in what appears to be an edit-kill (edit-killing yourself??), but of course nothing costs for the NPCs--that was part of my point. Some things cost PCs more than others, however, and while all resources in the game are finite and have an effect on PC power, XPs relationship is more direct than others, and XP is more finite (in games without achievements). There are a few specific instances where XP cost is used in 3.5e, all of which have permanent or semi-permanent effects, for this reason, and it seems like adding XP to the opportunity cost of a spell is asking a lot, especially since that opportunity cost has to be taken in advance (by being memorized as a cleric, or by taking up a spell slot as a favored soul). NPCs, as I mentioned, have none of these restrictions.

Also, 30-minute casting time? Wha? The description I see here says 1 standard action.Slitherrr

To clarify, the minor experience cost was a suggestion for nerfing war spells like Summon Pack/Herd and Undead Legion (which have 30-minute casting times). It's not about Deific Vengeance. -Mattie

Oh, ok. That's a different animal. -Slitherrr

I see what you did there. -gm