Talk:Elk Rider
I'd like to make any revisions to this before anyone ends up taking it. Specifically the Exceptional Mount ability. I think it should be brought into line with Animal Companion table. Replace the (% OF Owners Hit Die) with additional hit dice that would stack as animal companion levels. It would mean a lot less hit points, but still waaaaay more than - say - [Tenpence|Tenny], who has proved remarkably resiliant. OTOH, it would give things like new feats, skill points, and other goodies to offset. Thoughts? Particularly Fean, if she's tuned into this channel, since I doubt Al has any interest. He's more like to become an Elk than mount one. Err, unless he's in elk form. -gm
- He could turn into Elk form, then mount and Elk.
- That was the joke I was trying to make. Damn my typo!
- BOOM.
- Innuendo aside, keeping Tenpence alive has been a dash of luck mixed with a huge helping of Kib trying to make himself more dangerous than his mount (and succeeding in some ways more than others). Mounted Combat helps, but only with Ride ranks (incidentally, I'm guessing the Improved Mounted Archery ex ability overwrites Mounted Archery? Perhaps the first level of this class should give Mounted Archery just to make the progression clear?
- "Improved" versions never stack with their mundane counterparts (see also: Skill Focus), but if you think it needs to be explicit we can do that.
- Right, and the wording of the two wouldn't allow them to stack anyway. I don't know how closely the standard feat tree should be tracked--the ranger class already has precedent for skipping prereqs, so it probably works as-is. -Slitherrr
- "Improved" versions never stack with their mundane counterparts (see also: Skill Focus), but if you think it needs to be explicit we can do that.
- Honestly, the % of Elk Rider Hit Dice is unnecessary since the Animal Companion bonus language is already there. You might want to force the Elk Rider to take the mount as animal companion as a condition of taking the class (since Druids and Rangers, strangely enough, can basically change out animal companions at will, even as sorcs and wizards have to go through the "wait a year and a day" bullshit), and then just remove all the extraneous % of HD and natural armor bonus language (and treat the Elk as being on the 5th-or-greater list, but that might be problematic for Anise at the moment). That Elk is the real feature of the class, and so giving it the possibility of sharing stage time with some other companion seems detrimental.
- I meant, is it better to have the bonus hit points come in the form of bonus HD or in the form of a bonus equal to a cut of the master's HP?
- I think, since the ranger/druid already have the animal companion mechanics, that it might as well build on them. It seems like the simplest path. -Slitherrr
- I meant, is it better to have the bonus hit points come in the form of bonus HD or in the form of a bonus equal to a cut of the master's HP?
- Also, there's a question of mine below this in its own section. I'm guessing the answer is yes, I just was curious.
- What is up with the non-standard reflex progression? I think that should be turned into the same as the fort save, especially since it'll still reach the same max.
- If the Elk rider has splashed a Druid level, can the "existing divine caster" levels count as Druid? If you got a min/maxer in the party (not in this group, since you could deal with it, but in case some OTHER group wanted to use this class), he could be a 1 Druid/X Ranger, get all the Ranger-like combat bonuses, then get a hefty spell boost when taking Elk Rider, at a relatively small cost (alternatively, Cleric, for a less-synergistic but probably even more powerful splash). This isn't a big deal, and I don't know a good solution for it, it just popped into my head. Maybe make it to "highest existing divine caster level"?
- Why would I make this an exception to every other "+1 Caster Level" prestige class?
- Works for me. -Slitherrr
- Why would I make this an exception to every other "+1 Caster Level" prestige class?
- Overall, if this class has a problem, it's closer to the side of too powerful than not powerful enough. Amazing Ranger-like combat progression, great animal companion synergies, awesome saves, and the availability of a pretty great animal companion--this is basically a Sidhe love-song. -Slitherrr
- Hm. ok.
Shall we convert this over to pathfinder? Granted it will be a few levels... -Feantari
Animal Companion Level Stacking
So Elk Rider levels count Druid-style, right? I.e., a 3/5/2 Druid/Ranger/Elk Rider would have 3 + (5/2 round down = 2) + 2 = 7 animal-companion-counting levels? -Slitherrr
- That is so.
Candidates for other skills (from either Druid or Ranger lists):
- Spellcraft (druid)
- Diplomacy (druid)
- Knowledge (dungeoneering) (ranger)
- Knowledge (geography) (ranger)
- Profession (both)
- Use Rope (ranger)
- Hide (ranger)
- Move Silently (ranger)
Hide/Move Silently would be very in line with nature stuff and stealthiness, but very strange on a mounted prestige class. Use Rope and the two Knowledges are a little general-use and can probably be left off. Profession is on basically every list, but it's really made more for base classes than prestige (and barely matters anyway). Diplomacy is used with wild empathy, which both Ranger and Druid have, but the skill is only a class skill for druids (and is a little "soft" for this prestige, which is more martial). Spellcraft probably deserves to stay off for the same reason. All told, the list as it is is probably fine--arguments could be made for hide/move silent, but they just don't really fit with a mounted class. -Slitherrr
I'd argue that for a mounted prestige class knowledge (geography) probably makes a good bit of sense. - Feantari
Comparison with other animal-rider classes
I think it might be prudent to look at this side-by-side with the other rider classes just so we get a feel for balance.
| Level | Elk Rider | Camel Archer | Cavalier | All |
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The Camel Archer pretty clearly gets the shaft here. His bonus feats are weaker than the Elk Rider (no damage/attack increases, smaller mounted combat selection, exactly the same skill selection), he gets no divine spellcaster levels, he has a weaker Reflex save until level 4, he doesn't get animal companion stacking, and all he gets in return are dromedary fear (KILLER against horses, useless against anything else), and a token initiative bonus.
The cavalier is closer to the Elk Rider, but still comes out behind--all his attack/damage bonuses are limited by time period (per day with deadly charge, per hour with burst of speed) and don't apply to ranged weapons, his saves are worse, and he gets no comparable skill bonuses, caster levels or Animal Companion stacking, just some added DR (which isn't nothing, but consider that a Barbarian will have the same DR three levels or so before the Cavalier, without the Heavy Armor requirement). His main saving grace is the full-attack ride-by-attack ability, which is freaking amazing, and makes up for a lot. Also, two more hit points per level, which I had missed before.
tl;dr, balance-wise, these guys need work, and Elk-Rider is amazing. -Slitherrr
I forgot the Dog Rider up there, but he's basically equivalent to the Camel Archer--no bonus feats, skill mastery:ride doesn't apply just to exceptional mount, additional charge bonuses, fewer skill points, and the same save typo the Cavalier has.
- I strongly disagree, and feel that you are VERY MUCH overvaluing the token increase to spell selection. I also disagree strongly with your assessment of the Dog Rider vis a vis the Camel Archer. There are all kinds of strong abilities for each of these three classes that don't even seem to enter your calculations at all. -gm
- But they're all right there in the table. I literally copied all three of the Elk Rider/Camel Archer/Cavalier tables into it--nothing is missing except the Dog Rider stuff (because I didn't even remember the Dog Rider until after the rest of the table was up). I mentioned up there that the Dog Rider probably gets it better than the Camel Archer (Battle Herding is really cool), but it is completely impossible to argue that the Camel Archer does not have strictly worse abilities than the Elk Rider, because the Elk Rider literally has all of the Camel Archer's abilities (switching out skill mastery in survival for skill mastery in animal handling), minus dromedary fear and +2 to initiative, then plus damage-increasing bonus feats, divine spellcaster levels, AND animal companion stacking (translates to up to four more HD on the mount, four more AC, two more ST/DX), AND a better bonus feat selection (ride-by attack doesn't even work with bows--charging is melee-only). Dromedary Fear is very nice, but is definitely a one-trick pony, whereas the Elk Rider's Bow feats will apply to every battle she's in. I agree that spellcaster levels aren't much, but I never said they were--they're just icing on the cake.
Aside from the Camel Archer, you're probably right that the Cavalier and the Dog Rider have a bit of a better argument. I don't see how your charge that I neglected any of the Cavalier or Camel Archer's abilities (they're all there in the table!) holds any weight, and you're probably right that the Cavalier is fine (DR 2 and +2 to attack/damage aren't laughable--it's basically a compromise between Barbarian and Fighter, but with the armor of a Fighter, and like I mention in the table, the "Full Attacks with a move action" ability is godly, even though it is worded very strangely on the class page). The Dog Rider abilities are quite fun and useful, and like I said, he didn't get the inspection the others got, because I had forgotten about him until the very end, so you're probably right that I didn't give him as much credit. I stand firmly by my assessment of the Camel Archer, though, although I am open to being convinced otherwise. -Slitherrr
- Type is "Species," roughly. Large Quadruped Herbivores.
- So, if a Druid with, say, a brown bear animal companion became an Elk Rider, it'd apply to Large Omnivores and Large Quadruped Herbivores? Or maybe we'd prefer somewhere on the Family level, like Ursines and Cervidae (or Ungulates)? Obviously there can be a lot of leeway there, especially when it comes to non-dangerous herbivores. -Slitherrr
- Just spitballing, to kind of get a feel for things, I'm assuming that would include Dire versions of the animal? Like, if Al took this class up to level 5, could he go seek out a Dire Bear cub and automatically rear it? He'd be level 13-ish by that time, so a DC 27 Handle Animal check wouldn't be far out of his reach anyway (16 skill points, a four Charisma bonus from chain-casting Owl's Wisdom, and he's at 70%), and this would probably be completely kosher. I think the best, though, would be a Druid/Elk-Rider with a lynx or cerval Companion rearing a Dire Tiger :D Just gotta make sure the mother doesn't make that "Calm Animals" Will save...-Slitherrr
- Those things just can't happen. It has to be a elk or deer. It says so right in the prereqs for the class. -gm
- AH, ok, yeah I had asked about that up there near the table, because I'd missed it in the description, so thanks for pointing it out. That makes sense, of course, although if that's the case, we can probably either ditch "of similar type to Animal Companion" and leave just "herbivores" in the description, in the interest of reducing redundancy, or we can remove the herbivores classification and leave the ability to just "of similar type", the latter of which is probably more thematically appropriate (and would discount silly things like Elephants and Hippos and Dire Rabbits [I seek the Holy Grail], but leave things like Buffalo, Reindeer, Oxen, and Horses, rejected or accepted on a case-by-case basis). -Slitherrr
- Those things just can't happen. It has to be a elk or deer. It says so right in the prereqs for the class. -gm
- Just spitballing, to kind of get a feel for things, I'm assuming that would include Dire versions of the animal? Like, if Al took this class up to level 5, could he go seek out a Dire Bear cub and automatically rear it? He'd be level 13-ish by that time, so a DC 27 Handle Animal check wouldn't be far out of his reach anyway (16 skill points, a four Charisma bonus from chain-casting Owl's Wisdom, and he's at 70%), and this would probably be completely kosher. I think the best, though, would be a Druid/Elk-Rider with a lynx or cerval Companion rearing a Dire Tiger :D Just gotta make sure the mother doesn't make that "Calm Animals" Will save...-Slitherrr
Tangential: Dire Hippos would be the scariest non-magical creatures in existence. Forget bears, man--hippos kill more people per year than any other macroorganism on the planet. Can you imagine this, only your boat is a caravel and the Hippo is the size of a house?-Slitherrr
Stuff cleared here. Slitherrr 10:11, 24 February 2011 (EST)
