Talk:Flame Disciple

Draft moved to the top. Other stuff at the bottom, some hidden in collapsible tables.-Slitherrr

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Alright, this is what I've come up with. Saving throws are blanked, but I expect Will is strong, and Fort and Ref are weak. I'm willing to hear arguments to the contrary, naturally, but that's my initial inclination. d8 HD is clearly far too much, but considering the HP sacrificing mechanic and the severely reduced caster progression, d6 is very reasonable. I ditched the "becoming a half elemental" idea - sort of - instead migrating that ability to the familiar to give some kind of ability gain on the even (caster increase) levels. Increased the spell prereqs to bring in line with other specialist prestige classes. Persistent damage is something I try to avoid for sanity sake, but liked having a offensive defense ability and tried to compensate with a more potent single round of damage. Finally, added a mechanic that *might* be a tad to complicated (but I don't think so) in order to create a "fire storm" sort of mechanic that is still tied to spell slots rather than special abilities.

Input encouraged.

Comment

With the Nova ability as it stands, there's a good argument for Fort to be the strong save. We could argue that a flame disciple isn't really as concerned about self-control as a normal sorc/wizzie. -Slitherrr 15:19, 28 October 2010 (EDT)

--Slitherrr 15:20, 28 October 2010 (EDT)

That's kind of why I gave the Attribute Bonus to saves. I'm down with making fort one of the strong saves, but I'd probably want to drop the bonus, which really is just one more layer of complexity anyway. Hmm. Also, FWIW, the caster has an innate fire resist of 15 by the time she can nova, which would certainly apply to any damage. -gm

Right, with the resistance, the Nova doesn't do horrible damage. At the higher levels, though, a successful fort save becomes the difference between taking (on average) 22ish damage, or taking zero. I'm totally fine with no attribute bonuses to save, for the complexity reason, too.-Slitherrr

Also, note that I said "the" strong save, not "a" strong save. -Slitherrr

Ahh, of course. I like it. -gm

This article is a draft. Its content is likely to change, possibly drastically, in the near future.

Description: In Flux

Prerequisites: the ability to cast four arcane spells with the fire descriptor, one of which must be at least 3rd-level or greater offensive Fire spell. 7 ranks of Spellcraft, 5 ranks of Knowledge(Arcana), and 3 ranks of Knowledge(The Planes). Must not have an elemental creature type (wholly or partially).

Comment

Looking at this just now, I notice that it takes 18 skill ranks (7 spellcraft, 5 know(arc), 6 know (the planes)) for a sorc to get here, making level 7 the first possible FD level for a sorc with no int bonus if he gets skills in nothing but those things (also, coincidentally, the level at which he can get fireball). Wizards have an easier time, of course--they could make level 6 (level 5 being the level for 3rd-level spells), with skill points to spare (15 skill ranks total out of a minimum of 16, and if course wizards will have an int bonus as well). I don't know which of the two fit better, or whether we want to think about requirements, I just wanted to throw that number-crunchy in since I'm waiting for a thing to finish and have little else better to do.

--Slitherrr 15:13, 28 October 2010 (EDT)

Sorc gets fireball at level 6. I factored it in to the requirements. are you suggesting that the skill reqs are too high?

I think they're probably exactly right for the sorc, since the sorc would be putting everything in to get it in at the minimum level, which is right about perfect. My bigger question is whether the Wizard should be able to get in earlier, since this class really seems more like a natural-connection-with-magic thing than a studied-for-a-long-time thing, anyway. I also don't know how that discrepancy would be changed, and it's only one level of difference, I was just adding it to the slew of data.-Slitherrr

I don't really mind. Wizards having an easier time getting prestiges than sorcs is par for the course, excepting things like dragon disciple.

Works for me, then. -Slitherrr

Hit Dice: d6

Skill Points: 2+INT

Class Skills: Spot, Listen, Concentration, Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (The Planes), Spellcraft

× Level	Natural AC Bonus	BaB	Fort	Ref	Will	Ability
1	+0	+1	+0	+0	+0	Soul Furnace, Flame Resistance, Fire Mastery
2	+1	+1	+0	+0	+0	Resistant Familiar,Inner Fire +1 to arcane caster level for spell progression
3	+1	+2	+0	+0	+0	Nova Channel
4	+2	+2	+0	+0	+0	Elemental Familiar, +1 to arcane caster level for spell progression
5	+2	+3	+0	+0	+0	Lingering Flames

Fire Mastery - All spells with the fire descriptor cast do additional fire damage equal to caster's Flame Disciple level.

Fire Resistance - Flame Disciples develop flame resistance equal to 5x their Disciple level. This does not stack with fire resistance from other sources.

Inner Fire - The caster's soul furnace has reached such intensity that he or she may ignite flammable materials with nothing but a touch as a standard action. If the item is in someone's possession or equipped my someone, then they are entitled to a reflex save to avoid the effect. If the item is magical, it is entitled to a save to avoid the effect. In both cases, the save is DC 10 + Flame Disciple Level + Caster Attribute Mod.

Resistant Familiar - If the caster has a familiar, that familiar shares the caster's innate fire resistance if within 30 feet.

Soul Furnace (Sp) - For fire-based spells, the caster may sacrifice some of his own life-force to empower them. The caster may sacrifice up to one hit points per spell level as a free action when casting a spell, adding 1d4 fire damage for each hit point so sacrificed. This effect is limited to spell levels less than or equal to the disciple level, and may only be used on spells with the fire descriptor.

Elemental Familiar - If the caster has a familiar, that familiar gains the "Elemental (Fire)" template, Fire Immunity and Cold Vulnerability. Any natural attacks now deal +1 fire damage in addition to damage from any other sources. In addition, the familiar gains a fire breath weapon, once per day, with 15' range, dealing 1d4+1 points of damage for every point caster attribute bonus. The DC for this breath weapon is 15.

Elemental Traits:

1. Darkvision out to 60 feet.
2. Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, and stunning.
3. Not subject to critical hits or flanking.
4. Unlike most other living creatures, an elemental does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an elemental is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don’t work on an elemental. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection, to restore it to life. (Ed Note: The soul is "burnt away" by the transformation.)
5. Proficient with natural weapons only, unless generally humanoid in form, in which case proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
6. Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) that it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Elementals not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Elementals are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
7. Elementals do not eat, sleep, or breathe.

Nova Channel (Sp) - The caster's mastery over her inner fire has reached such levels that the caster may us it to act as a conduit directly to the Elemental Plane of Fire, sacrificing spell castings to fuel a pyrotechnic blast from within the caster's own body. As a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity, the Flame Disciple may sacrifice a spell to generate a 20' radius ball of fire, centered on (and affecting) herself. The damage dealt by this blast is equal to 1d4 + Ability Modifier for every level of the sacrificed spell. A reflex saving throw, DC equal to casting a comparable level fire spell cast by the Flame Disciple, is allowed for half damage. The caster make a fortitude save, with a bonus equal to her attribute modifier, to suffer half damage. The Flame Disciple may not sacrifice a spell of a higher spell level than she has flame disciple levels.

Comment

Awesome. It'll do a significant amount of damage to the caster without putting him in so much danger that he'll never use the ability.

--Slitherrr 10:38, 28 October 2010 (EDT)

Lingering Flames (Metamagic) - The caster becomes so in tune with fire type spells that he or she gains the ability to increase the duration of instantaneous spells. If the caster takes a full round action to cast a fire spell, its duration may be changed from "instantaneous" to any number of rounds of the caster's choosing. For every round the spell is extended, the spell's effective level is increased by one. If Soul Furnace is used in conjunction with this ability, the increased damage must be paid for *each round* the caster wishes to have increased damage.

Example: A Burning Hands spell cast as a third level spell would burn from the casters fingertips for three rounds: The instantaneous duration, plus one round for each spell level. Any creature in the area of effect during the caster's turn, or entering into the area of effect on its own turn, takes the damage. (Much like Ice Storm of Fire Storm spells). Likewise, a fireball cast as a fourth level spell would do exist for the round of casting plus one round.

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More Numbers:

Average Dmg(resisted dmg) as Caster Stat (x) vs Sacrificed Spell Level (y)
	0	1	2	3	4	5
1	3.5 (1.75)	5.5 (2.75)	7.5 (3.75)	9.5 (4.75)	11.5 (5.75)	13.5 (6.75)
2	7.0 (3.5)	10.0 (5.0)	13.0 (6.5)	16.0 (8.0)	19.0 (9.5)	22.0 (11.0)
3	10.5 (5.25)	14.5 (7.25)	18.5 (9.25)	22.5(11.25)	26.5(13.25)	30.5(15.25)
4	14.0 (7.0)	19.0 (9.5)	24.0 (12.0)	29.0 (14.5)	34.0 (17.0)	39.0 (19.5)
5	17.5 (8.75)	23.5(11.75)	29.5(14.75)	35.5(17.75)	41.5(20.75)	47.5(23.75)

-Slitherrr

If we consider this a showcase ability for the FD, I think this may be a tad underpowered. Consider a sorc 8/FD 5 could cast a fireball (level 3 spell) and do 10d6+5 damage at a range of up to 400 ft + something crazy, or he could nova with a 15' radius with a level 4 spell and do (4d4+(cha bonus, let's say three) damage (he can't even do a level 5 spell at this level, yet). The latter is clearly a lot less, for the sacrifice of a higher-level spell slot and the ability to damage at range AND the larger radius of the fireball (15' vs 20'), although with the benefit of no components (which implies the ability to nova while bound) and no casting time (vs a standard action).

I think we could solve these problems by scaling radius with FD level (or rather, with level of spell sacrificed). -Slitherrr

Scaling the radius by FD level is not a bad idea. I'm not sure it's that underpowered considering one of the trade offs (nova damage) is mitigated by resist (15, 20, or 25 depending on level) Pete could shrug off level 1 or 2 novas with failed saves, and even lvl 3 ones with a successful one. Also: I think you're misreading the damage? It's not Lvld4 + MOD, it's (d4+MOD)/Lvl. -gm

Yeah, I was factoring that in. The damage calculations in the table are (d4+mod)*lvl, even if I might have said it the wrong way up there. I'm just wondering if the ability to cast instantly with no components is worth the difference in levels. Consider that a level 3 nova is 22.5 damage (assuming +3 from cha) in a 15' radius on average. At the same minimum level (6 sorc + 3 FD = caster level 7, if he goes straight for FD), he's getting 7d6 + 3 from his fireball, averaging 27.5 in a 20' radius (with more variance than the nova). If we go to level 4 (as above), then we're at a minimum of sorc 8 FD 4, so a 10d6 + 4 = 39ish avg fireball vs. 29ish (again, +3, a +4 makes it 34) avg nova, with the fireball in a larger radius, at range, AND using a level lower spell slot, at the cost of being a standard action rather than a free (or swift, more likely, since I doubt you want this more than once per turn). That's the argument, without considering the self-damage aspect. My thought is that making the range scale would give it a usefulness that none of the other fire spells have, without having to crank the damage up to stupid levels. -Slitherrr

Ahh. FWIW, I'd suggest that by getting to Nova, the character would have at least gotten 2 points of their primary attribute from level gains and probably have a +4, but I doubt that's much of a difference. Additionally, I think that the damage output for this ability *should* be less than a spell cast of the same level sacrificed, though the question of "how much less" is in play.

1. Damage drop is balanced by versatility. The FD can scale damage depending on threat, or be more discriminate about what spell levels to lose.

2. Fireball is the grandfathered-in-overpowered spell for that level and isn't a great comparison. How does the first level nova compare to burning hands, or the second level one to Flaming Sphere? Pretty well, I'd argue. Possibly better. If there is some damage-scale-dropoff at the ceiling spell levels... so be it. The re-purposing of low level, borderline obsolete spells might be value enough.

3. The ability *should* do less damage, with less variance, because of the risks involved in using it.

4. As you indicate, it is a standard action. Unlike a cast spell, it does not require V, S, or M components or, most importantly for trying to drop a FB on yourself when swarmed, does not trigger attacks of opportunity.

5. Did I mention it doesn't trigger attacks of opportunity? Being snarky, sure, but to me, this is the core strength of the ability. Imagine Thoven surrounded by 5 kobolds. He can cast a FB on himself and wipe them out, but he has an AC of 11 and is going to have to shrug of five free attacks before he gets that chance, and then has to succeed on a concentration check based on the cumulative amount of damage suffered by those AoOs.

I agree that the non-AoO nature is a big gain. I'll run the numbers on Flaming Hands and Burning Sphere and see what I get, there. I'll run it on Fire Shield, too, but that will have a huge caveat that the damage is reactive, not AoE (plus a shielding affect against cold/fire damage, to make things more complicated). Basically, the question isn't whether it should do as much damage as a fireball (because it definitely shouldn't), but whether there is a vast enough difference in the damages to justify tweaking the nova a bit despite its advantages. -Slitherrr

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Numbers here hidden 10:32, 28 October 2010 (EDT)

Just to note, here, vulnerability is huuuuge, especially with caster HP. Elementals get away with it because they have tons of d8 HD, and resist tons of other forms of damage, but the poor flame disciple is going to find himself completely down and out even on a successful reflex save and with a decent amount of cold resistance with a single cone of cold, or similar attack. I don't know if any of his other abilities really give him enough damage output to justify that sort of vulnerability, especially if he's losing immunity. -Slitherrr I like the quality where there is fire everywhere with this guy. I kind of like the nova more than the burning blood ability, although the fact that the blood is a reaction that doesn't take an action probably makes it better. --146.127.253.12 Numbers Whipped up an app to generate numbers. Here are damage numbers for all the cold spells in the SRD. CLvl is caster level, min max and average are for that level, boost are the same but with vulnerability, avgbr## is avgboost with resist of that amount applied before vulnerability. It's probably worth pointing out that the min level is based on Wizard caster level. Sorcs will be higher. I also didn't check whether any of them were domain spells that might occur at an earlier level. This also, I just remembered, doesn't include Divine spells--I can add them pretty easily, once I get back to the computer that has the script. -Slitherrr Never mind, there are no cold-damage Divine spells. -Slitherrr One cold-damage Druid spell (kept here to remember later): Chill Metal Ray of Frost, min caster level 1, Cold Type, Ranged touch attack CLvl| min| max| avg|minboost|maxboost|avgboost|avgbr10|avgbr20|avgbr30 1| 1| 3| 2.0| 1.5| 4.5| 3.0| 0.0| 0.0| 0.0 Cold Shield, min caster level 7, Cold Type, No save CLvl| min| max| avg|minboost|maxboost|avgboost|avgbr10|avgbr20|avgbr30 7| 8| 13| 10.0| 12.0| 19.5| 15.0| 0.0| 0.0| 0.0 8| 9| 14| 11.0| 13.5| 21.0| 16.5| 1.5| 0.0| 0.0 9| 10| 15| 12.0| 15.0| 22.5| 18.0| 3.0| 0.0| 0.0 10| 11| 16| 13.0| 16.5| 24.0| 19.5| 4.5| 0.0| 0.0 11| 12| 17| 14.0| 18.0| 25.5| 21.0| 6.0| 0.0| 0.0 12| 13| 18| 15.0| 19.5| 27.0| 22.5| 7.5| 0.0| 0.0 13| 14| 19| 16.0| 21.0| 28.5| 24.0| 9.0| 0.0| 0.0 14| 15| 20| 17.0| 22.5| 30.0| 25.5| 10.5| 0.0| 0.0 15| 16| 21| 18.0| 24.0| 31.5| 27.0| 12.0| 0.0| 0.0 Ice Storm, min caster level 7, Cold Type, No save CLvl| min| max| avg|minboost|maxboost|avgboost|avgbr10|avgbr20|avgbr30 7| 2| 12| 6.0| 3.0| 18.0| 9.0| 0.0| 0.0| 0.0 Wall of Ice, min caster level 7, Cold Type, No save CLvl| min| max| avg|minboost|maxboost|avgboost|avgbr10|avgbr20|avgbr30 7| 8| 13| 10.0| 12.0| 19.5| 15.0| 0.0| 0.0| 0.0 8| 9| 14| 11.0| 13.5| 21.0| 16.5| 1.5| 0.0| 0.0 9| 10| 15| 12.0| 15.0| 22.5| 18.0| 3.0| 0.0| 0.0 10| 11| 16| 13.0| 16.5| 24.0| 19.5| 4.5| 0.0| 0.0 11| 12| 17| 14.0| 18.0| 25.5| 21.0| 6.0| 0.0| 0.0 12| 13| 18| 15.0| 19.5| 27.0| 22.5| 7.5| 0.0| 0.0 13| 14| 19| 16.0| 21.0| 28.5| 24.0| 9.0| 0.0| 0.0 14| 15| 20| 17.0| 22.5| 30.0| 25.5| 10.5| 0.0| 0.0 15| 16| 21| 18.0| 24.0| 31.5| 27.0| 12.0| 0.0| 0.0 16| 17| 22| 19.0| 25.5| 33.0| 28.5| 13.5| 0.0| 0.0 17| 18| 23| 20.0| 27.0| 34.5| 30.0| 15.0| 0.0| 0.0 18| 19| 24| 21.0| 28.5| 36.0| 31.5| 16.5| 1.5| 0.0 19| 20| 25| 22.0| 30.0| 37.5| 33.0| 18.0| 3.0| 0.0 20| 21| 26| 23.0| 31.5| 39.0| 34.5| 19.5| 4.5| 0.0 Cone of Cold, min caster level 9, Cold Type, Save for half CLvl| min| max| avg|minboost|maxboost|avgboost|avgbr10|avgbr20|avgbr30 9| 9| 54| 31.0| 13.5| 81.0| 46.5| 31.5| 16.5| 1.5 10| 10| 60| 35.0| 15.0| 90.0| 52.5| 37.5| 22.5| 7.5 11| 11| 66| 38.0| 16.5| 99.0| 57.0| 42.0| 27.0| 12.0 12| 12| 72| 42.0| 18.0| 108.0| 63.0| 48.0| 33.0| 18.0 13| 13| 78| 45.0| 19.5| 117.0| 67.5| 52.5| 37.5| 22.5 14| 14| 84| 49.0| 21.0| 126.0| 73.5| 58.5| 43.5| 28.5 15| 15| 90| 52.0| 22.5| 135.0| 78.0| 63.0| 48.0| 33.0 Freezing Sphere, min caster level 11, Cold Type, Save for half CLvl| min| max| avg|minboost|maxboost|avgboost|avgbr10|avgbr20|avgbr30 11| 11| 66| 38.0| 16.5| 99.0| 57.0| 42.0| 27.0| 12.0 12| 12| 72| 42.0| 18.0| 108.0| 63.0| 48.0| 33.0| 18.0 13| 13| 78| 45.0| 19.5| 117.0| 67.5| 52.5| 37.5| 22.5 14| 14| 84| 49.0| 21.0| 126.0| 73.5| 58.5| 43.5| 28.5 15| 15| 90| 52.0| 22.5| 135.0| 78.0| 63.0| 48.0| 33.0 Polar Ray, min caster level 15, Cold Type, Ranged touch attack CLvl| min| max| avg|minboost|maxboost|avgboost|avgbr10|avgbr20|avgbr30 15| 15| 90| 52.0| 22.5| 135.0| 78.0| 63.0| 48.0| 33.0 16| 16| 96| 56.0| 24.0| 144.0| 84.0| 69.0| 54.0| 39.0 17| 17| 102| 59.0| 25.5| 153.0| 88.5| 73.5| 58.5| 43.5 18| 18| 108| 63.0| 27.0| 162.0| 94.5| 79.5| 64.5| 49.5 19| 19| 114| 66.0| 28.5| 171.0| 99.0| 84.0| 69.0| 54.0 20| 20| 120| 70.0| 30.0| 180.0| 105.0| 90.0| 75.0| 60.0 21| 21| 126| 73.0| 31.5| 189.0| 109.5| 94.5| 79.5| 64.5 22| 22| 132| 77.0| 33.0| 198.0| 115.5| 100.5| 85.5| 70.5 23| 23| 138| 80.0| 34.5| 207.0| 120.0| 105.0| 90.0| 75.0 24| 24| 144| 84.0| 36.0| 216.0| 126.0| 111.0| 96.0| 81.0 25| 25| 150| 87.0| 37.5| 225.0| 130.5| 115.5| 100.5| 85.5 Am I reading this table right? I get the impression that vulnerability will increase the damage of cold based spells by between 80% and 150% on average depending on the spell. Double damage from spells does seem pretty rough. --146.127.253.44 Vulnerability adds 50% to damage after resists and so on. The more interesting statistics are the numbers themselves, and whether or not they are enough to, say, kill the vulnerable PC in a single hit with little/no chance of a save after the vulnerability boost. The big ones to worry about are Cone of Cold and Freezing Sphere (Polar Ray is also scary, but it's scary regardless of vulnerability status, and a ranged touch attack does no damage when avoided, compared to half damage on a reflex save, and in addition to DC being easier to add to than reflex). For both CoC and FS, at the min caster level, the boosted damage means there's a good chance of instant Flame Disciple death even on a successful Reflex save for half damage, unless the FD can keep Cold Resist 30 up (and even then, the average takes him down to ~66% of hp). Jonesy has already opted to ditch vulnerability, so it's an academic point. Once I'm home, I plan to do similar analysis for the damage buffs. I'm less positive what we can compare those to, but it won't hurt to have more data around. -Slitherrr

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Stuff hidden 10:15, 28 October 2010 (EDT)

I've not been playing for a particularly long time, so I have no idea how well (or poorly) balanced this is. Specifically, I'm not sure if the minor elemental storm is actually useful or if it's just cool sounding. I've also thought about spell-like abilities like the following that could be used in place of the ones listed or possibly in the 2nd and 4th level slots: Wildfire: all creatures (enemies?) currently on fire explode, dealing some nominal damage to themselves and catching enemies within 10' on fire (chance to save by reflex). Living bomb: small damage per round, larger AoE on death/expiration of the DoT/dispel. Combustion(?): Causes a small explosion under the caster's feet, dealing some small amount of damage and knocking everyone within 5' backwards 10' (used to disengage from melee enemies), possibly a chance to knock the opponent prone? Engulfing flames: Some sort of stacking effect where each fire damage by the caster causes the target to be more susceptible to fire for N rounds. ... If more balance is needed, I think it would be appropriate for non-fire based offensive spells to count as one level higher than they are listed for purposes of spells known / per day. Another option I've considered would be to flesh out all of the spells so far and provide them as a supplemental spell list that the caster could take as necessary. Thoughts? Suggestions? Be gentle. TooMuchPete 17:27, 21 June 2010 (EDT)

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Stuff hidden 10:32, 28 October 2010 (EDT)
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I updated the article to reflect something of a consensus on the way to do fire resist (FR 5x Disciple Level), although I'm still not sure the best way to handle cold damage. In Elementals, Immunity to fire yields +50% cold damage, so anything that big seems like it would be bad news. One suggestion from [[slitherrr] was +1 to each cold damage die rolled, which is significant at high levels without being absurd. That would make sense to take effect on the 5th level. If something was needed in the interim, +1 per 2 dice could be done at level 3 or something.

I moved caster level advancement from levels 1,3,5 to levels 2,4 to provide a bit of room to do more fun stuff.

I also removed Minor Elemental Swarm -- the idea is neat, but it seems impractical and like it would be rarely used for it to be a 5th level ability.

Some ideas so far for filling in other abilities (etc):

• Metamagic feats don't cost anything for fire-based spells
• Possibly the option between two different styles of new metamagic feat:
  • Fire spells all get a knockback/knockdown, or
  • Fire spells apply a damage over time effect
• A caster-centered explosion (presumably to deal with being swarmed)
• The ability to learn druid/cleric/etc fire spells at some sort of level penalty

I'm open to suggestions for others, it seems (at least to me) like there's a bit of room to push more cool stuff in without making the class over-powered.

-TooMuchPete 17:07, 23 June 2010 (EDT)