Difference between revisions of "Talk:Professional (3.5e)"

Revision as of 21:58, 11 January 2010

Slith, there is an ongoing discussion about professional that you should be included in and weigh in on. We have a pretty solid second option for this class where we drop evasion, bump the hp to d8, and give medium armor prof (and probably switch ref save to fort). There are a few reasons to do this:

• Jones thinks evasion is the purview of the rogue class (much like the trap/umd skills that were omitted here)
• I think it makes the class more splashable for rogues, while boosting its value to combat classes based on a little more resilience.
• Evasion has a supernatural flavor, while armor prof has a training/education flavor. I think we mitigate this by making the professions "exceptionally attentive" language.

The cons are:

• Is it too powerful?
• Does it mess with any of our respective character plans?
• Which makes more sense?

I think the changes are good; they keep the Professional a good front-line character when splashed with Fighter, and a good sneaky character when splashed with Rogue (or vice versa for either). The extra skills and bonus 2 hp make up for the redundancy of medium armor proficiency in the Rogue's case, and the extra HP and no loss of Evasion make it good for the Fighter case, a flexibility which definitely fits the Professional's style. Armor check penalty matters for five of his skills, so that's a consideration, but the skills that are affected aren't as class-critical as the Rogue's. The stuff that the Professional is really good at, talky skills and general use, aren't affected at all.

I guess the real question is whether an extra 2 hp/level and slightly better armor make up for the loss of Improved Evasion later on. I would vote no, because he doesn't have the HP to soak area spells like a Fighter, nor does he have the resistance spells to protect himself like a Ranger (the Ranger also gets Evasion at level 9).

I suppose one idea would be to give the Prof Monk saves (all three strong), but that seems excessive. If choosing between Fort and Ref, Ref seems like the more flexible of the two.

-Slitherrr

It's probably part of what instigated this discussion, but part of the problem with mixing Fighter and Professional is the lack of the ability to wear that heavier armor--Evasion is just too good to miss out on.-Slitherrr

A thought that reading Germain's page just gave me: an improved flank ability might be interesting (for example, the ability to cause a flanking situation whenever another ally is adjacent to the enemy, rather than just when the allies are on opposite sides). -Slitherrr

Along with the above, any ability that makes the Professional better in combat in a tactical sense, rather than in a prowess sense, fits what seems like the Professional's real class-defining role in combat, supporting teammates in combat with superior tactics. -Slitherrr

Actually, this has been on the table since the beginning... we just can't figure out which we like better. I think either way fits in with the Prof theme well. I probably haven't played in the late-game enough to know how powerful evasion is. It sounds like your saying that this would probably make the class weaker? If so, do we like the better HP/armor over evasion if we could balance it, or should we stay the course? I do like the idea of incorporating some buffing options to the class--makes it more congruent with the warlord class that was introduced in 4e. We might also look into buffing 'aid another', perhaps by making it a move action? I'm not sure jones would like that though --Msallen 09:28, 11 January 2010 (EST)

I like version without Evasion better, because it gives it more multi-classing flexibility. There's actually very little to commend the Professional right now to single-classing, mostly because D&D revolves so heavily around combat, and the Professional's strengths lie out of it. However, it does complement other classes very well when combined. Removing Evasion (with its light-armor limit) helps that flexibility. The main reason I think removing Evasion makes it underpowered, though, is that Improved Evasion automatically halves damage from AoE sources, since most of those allow Reflex saves. The three most-similar classes that spend any time on the front line mitigate the damage in some way: Fighters have even more hit points, Rangers can cast Resist Energy, and Rogues, of course, have Improved Evasion. Removing Evasion, then adding med armor and HP gives the Professional the hit points of a Ranger without Resist Energy capability. This indicates, numerically, a net loss for the Professional. The other classes that spend any time on the front line also have mitigators: Clerics get Resist Energy with Ranger HP, Paladins get Resist Energy with Fighter HP, and Barbarians get DR and buttloads of HP.

So, tl;dr, the change makes the Professional worse at combat. Whether this makes him underpowered or not depends on whether or not he was balanced to begin with, which depends on a lot of things, like how well his talky skills can actually prevent combat from happening in the first place (which depends very heavily on the GM, and on the player's ability to make favorable situations out of whole cloth), or how well-matched his cohort is to the party (again, GM-dependent).

On a different track, one way to make Aid Another better is to allow a Professional's Aid Another to remove Dex bonus from the target, making that target sneak-attack-able. This would have the effect of the improved flanking above, without being nearly as powerful. I doubt that it's powerful enough to really make up for the loss of Imp. Evasion, though. Maybe the resisting mental attacks aspect could be focused on, with more abilities that allow the Professional to more easily snap out of things, or to snap other people out of things. This gives him the power to keep helping his buddies, which is really along the Professional's purview, allowing him to, for instance, snap out that Wizard out of the fear effect in time for him to cast Resist Energy just before the dragon breathes. This would also make him a good Paladin splash class, since the Paladin's Will saves are one of his defining features (not that the rules allow Paladin splashing except after first level, but I'm speaking theoretically). -Slitherrr

Well, I don't mind that Pro is a little underpowered IN combat because he's clearly overpowered OUT of it. Mr. Allen made the point that he really only works in a "mature" setting, that is to say, with old and mature players who tend to value RP over the hack and slashery. I actually did not like evasion, but put suggested it much for the reason you state : combat balance. However, as you point out, since it's far more of an issue in the late game, there is a work around. Allow Evasion and Improved Evasion to be selected with Professional Development. I think the cooperation buffing aspect is intriguing and, for a character who gets leadership (and thus cohort and followers) by default, it actually creates a lot bit of class synergy. After all, a competent professional is can pretty much assure himself he has a partner to aid in combat, or to make up for his lack of protective magicks. (By picking a cleric or wizzy cohort)

In fact, combat wise, I originally saw him as being sort of a "petomancer", in MMO speak. 5/6th level is really the threshhold, IMHO, where characters go from being pawns to being mid-pieces. That's about the time a Professional picks up his cohort, who makes up the DPS (and possibly protection) lacking in the core class. -gm

I did a huge merge due to gm and my simul-edit, and I didn't really have patience to re-edit, so ignore any redundancy/confusion here

Great, I like where we are going with this discussion. I'd say lets make the change for sure. It sounds like everyone likes the HP+armor version as much as, or slightly more than, the current version for a number of reasons.

In that case, lets work on the power level issue. I think part of the intention behind this class is to make it easier to include investigative and political type gameplay (ie call of cthulhu, vampire: the masquerade) into 3.5e D&D. I don't care as much about the class for general D&D--its a class for mature gamers in a relatively modern world (ie. Jones' games). So I would like to keep it a great skill class and a supporting combat class. The two efforts we made to keep the combat OK were martial weapon profs and leadership, but that might not be enough?

I'm going to think about this in terms of related classes. I really think of the prof in this iteration as the martial skills of a cleric and the skills of a rogue. Which means here are some more direct comparisons:

• Compared with a rogue, the prof is probably a little better for skills. He has a wider range of skills, plus the copious skill feats, but he is missing some of the really strong rogue skills. In terms of combat, however, the prof is severely lacking in DPS, and a little worse off for magical and AoE attacks (although probably not martial combat, where the armor will help).

• Compared with a cleric, the prof is a little worse in combat. He has the same HP and damage (cleric weapon restrictions are mostly flavor), but he has more limited armor selection. Which means the Prof basically trades the clerics great casting abilities for great skills, which may be a poor trade. Of course, cleric is the most powerful class in 3.5 by a pretty big margin, so lets keep that in mind.

Maybe the class looks a little weaker than I'd previously thought in that light. Clearly its not too weak since so many players are taking it (germ, kib, quin), and I don't think it needs much. If we do ramp up the power, I think I'd go for better defenses (not from armor, btw, but saves or something) or better support skills.

If we do try to boost it, we might do well to shape it after the warlord class in 4e a bit. It makes him more of an asset on the battlefield without making him a brute, and I don't want the class to be a brute. We might also consider some sort of secondary healing ability as well, which is very supporty. I can imagine doing all this by augmenting aid another (or using some related mechanism) like this:

• Give a +3 bonus instead of +2

• Make target flat-footed until beginning of next turn

• Grant temporary hit points

• Perform 2/3/4 aid another actions as a full action

We might also grant special abilities from above based on skills and not on AC10 attack rolls, but I'm not sure its worth the complication.

PS: this is too much damn writing. You forum people probably prefer it this way, but I'd rather run my mouth. Should we have a conference call sometime?

--Msallen 17:39, 11 January 2010 (EST)

Should we have a conference call sometime? Let's pray no. -gm

Ha! Seriously, an easy way to do it might be to get us all on irc.lunarnet.org:6667 at the same time and chat it up in a room. All the typing of a forum, all the synchronization of a phone call

Holy crap I hate you all so much. This is what you get hanging out with the sorts of people that order pizza on the internet :| Talkin ftw. Computer nerds ftl! --Msallen 20:45, 11 January 2010 (EST)

You have an advanced degree in CS and hate typing. We are not the damaged ones here. -gm

Also: SOMETHING needs to go in the level 2 slot. Can't be sitting empty. Is that what is still under discussion? I'd rather not make incremental and tinkering changes to a class already in play, I'd rather sort out what the 2.0 edition is going to look like then do a mass conversion. -gm

Agreed and stuff. How about the level 2 ability is a choice from that list above, replace a bonus feat with another choice from the list (say, level 7), and let one of the Professional Development options be a further choice from the list? We could add more to it, as well. Like:

• Detect a teammate being dominated, coerced, etc
• Snap a teammate out of above-Slitherrr

This gives a lot of lists to choose out of, and makes the Professional jump around in a lot of different aspects of being helpful, but that kind of makes sense because, whereas a magic-user gets "use X spell list" to fill all those roles, all the mundane guys have to make do with custom lists of things. -Slitherrr

Could go even further, take out Uncanny Dodge, then make the multiple "Aid Another" actions a class feature that goes up at levels 4, 8, 12 and 16. Then, have all the other options on that list be variations of the Aid Another ability, so you could use an Aid Another to give one guy +2 (or +3), then another to give some other dude temporary hp, another to snap some other dude out, and so on. The mind-things will need some "use only once per round" stuff, but other than that, I think this is a workable concept. -Slitherrr

I'm adding a "Proposed Changes" section. Comments on what's been put there so far:

• We could add more or less of the Tactical Proficiency power ups, depending.
• Aid Another could be specified in such a way that any particular type of Aid action can only be used on an ally once per round/attempt (depending on whether in or out of combat), to keep from being able to reroll skill Aid Another attempts, if we feel that the current language is too powerful.
• "Roguish Knowledge" is redundant, since the Professional could just take the Cross-Class Learning feat instead, and get TWO skills instead of just one.

-Slitherrr

Proposed Changes

Let's compile and edit a list of the changes here, and discuss them in the other parts of this talk page:

• Hit Dice: d8
• Armor: Medium and Light
• Remove Evasion, Improved Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, Improved Uncanny Dodge, and bonus feats on levels 7 and 13.
• Add ability: 'Tactical Proficiency': At level four, and every fourth level thereafter, gain the ability to use another Aid Another action each round. This action can be used in any way that Aid Another could generally be used. All Aid Another actions in a round can only be used on a single target. Bonuses from multiple Aid Another actions do not stack. Using any number of Aid Another actions is a standard action, and the actions must all be performed at the same time (i.e., no movement between actions). At levels 2, 7 and 13, the Professional can augment his Aid Another action by choosing from the following list:
  • Rallying Boost: The target gains Professional's Charisma bonus temporary hitpoints for one round. After the round, the hit points are lost. If this puts the target into the negatives, he suffers all applicable penalties. This ability may only be in effect once per target--later uses of Rallying Boost on the same target before it expires will maintain the ability, rather than adding more hit points. This ability cannot be used on allies who are unable to hear the Professional (by virtue of deafness, unconsciousness, or similar effect)
  • Snap Out of It: A designated, adjacent ally gains an additional Will save against a mind-affecting ability. This ability can only be used once per round, and only on the same round, or the round immediately after the mind-affecting ability takes effect.
  • Look, Over Here!: For one round, a designated enemy that the Professional threatens becomes flat-footed with respect to a designated ally, removing the enemy's Dex bonus to AC (and, hence, allowing sneak attacks) on the ally's round.
  • Competence: On an Aid Another in Combat action, add a +3 to the ally's attack roll or AC, rather than +2.
  • Swiftness: The Professional's Aid Another action becomes a move action, rather than a standard action. All the Professional's Aid Another actions in a round must still be done at once.
• As part of Professional Development, the Professional may instead choose to augment his Aid Another ability, as above.
• As part of Professional Development, add the following option: You Can Do Better: On a successful Aid Another action involving a skill check, you may instead opt to make a check against DC 20 to allow the ally being aided to reroll and keep the better of two results. This may be used only once for the task in question, and cannot be used on any check whose result is normally kept secret (Spot checks, Move Silently checks, and so on).
• Remove "Roguish Knowledge" as a Professional Development option.