Difference between revisions of "Talk:Elk Rider"

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Hide/Move Silently would be very in line with nature stuff and stealthiness, but very strange on a mounted prestige class. Use Rope and the two Knowledges are a little general-use and can probably be left off. Profession is on basically every list, but it's really made more for base classes than prestige (and barely matters anyway). Diplomacy is used with ''wild empathy'', which both Ranger and Druid have, but the skill is only a class skill for druids (and is a little "soft" for this prestige, which is more martial). Spellcraft probably deserves to stay off for the same reason. All told, the list as it is is probably fine--arguments could be made for hide/move silent, but they just don't really fit with a mounted class. -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]
 
Hide/Move Silently would be very in line with nature stuff and stealthiness, but very strange on a mounted prestige class. Use Rope and the two Knowledges are a little general-use and can probably be left off. Profession is on basically every list, but it's really made more for base classes than prestige (and barely matters anyway). Diplomacy is used with ''wild empathy'', which both Ranger and Druid have, but the skill is only a class skill for druids (and is a little "soft" for this prestige, which is more martial). Spellcraft probably deserves to stay off for the same reason. All told, the list as it is is probably fine--arguments could be made for hide/move silent, but they just don't really fit with a mounted class. -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]
  
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=Comparison with other ''animal''-rider classes=
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Stuff cleared here. [[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]] 09:32, 20 February 2011 (EST)
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I think it might be prudent to look at this side-by-side with the other rider classes just so we get a feel for balance.
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{| class="collapsible collapsed wikitable"
+
{|class="wikitable" style="text-align:center"
 
|-
 
|-
−
! Elk Stats hidden 08:47, 12 November 2010 (EST)
+
!Level !! Elk Rider !! Camel Archer !! Cavalier !!All
 
|-
 
|-
−
|  
+
!1
−
Dire Elk<br />
+
|
−
Huge Animal<br />
+
*Strong Reflex +1)
−
12d8+60 (114 hp)<br />
+
*Bows eligible for specialization
−
+0<br />
+
*Full move in brush on mount
−
50 ft<br />
+
*Add Prestige levels to Ranger/Druid for animal companion
−
15 (-2 size, +7 natural)<br />
+
|
−
touch 8 ff 15<br />
+
*Strong Reflex
−
slam +14 melee and 2 hooves +9 melee, or gore +14 melee<br />
+
*''fear'' effect on horses
−
slam 2d6+7, hoof 2d4+3, gore 2d8+10<br />
+
*Skill mastery, ride, exceptional mount only
−
10ft by 20ft/10 ft<br />
+
|
−
trample 2d8+10<br />
+
*Bonus to Knowledge(Nobility)
−
low light vision, scent<br />
+
*Charge multiplier goes up one step (x4 with lance) once per day
−
fort +13, ref +8, will +8<br />
+
|
−
str 24 dex 11 con 20 int 2 wis 11 cha 7<br />
+
*Strong Fort
−
listen +6 spot +6<br />
+
*Exceptional Mount
 +
*Fighter BaB progression
 +
|-
 +
!2
 +
|
 +
*+1 existing divine spellcaster level
 +
*skill mastery, ride, exceptional mount only
 +
*bonus feat (bow- or skill-related, including bow specialization)
 +
|
 +
*bonus feat (skills, endurance, ride-by-attack)
 +
|
 +
*DR 1 in heavy armor only
 +
*+1 attack/dam while mounted
 +
|
 +
|-
 +
!3
 +
|
 +
*Improved Mounted Archery
 +
*Skill mastery, survival (mounted only?)
 +
|
 +
*Improved Mounted Archery
 +
*+2 initiative while mounted
 +
|
 +
*4x move charge 1/hour
 +
*1 more deadly charge per day
 +
|
 +
|-
 +
!4
 +
|
 +
*bonus feat (bow- or skill-related, including bow specialization)
 +
*skill mastery, animal handling
 +
*+1 divine spellcaster level
 +
|
 +
*skill mastery, survival
 +
*bonus feat (skills, endurance, ride-by-attack)
 +
*catch up to Elk Rider Reflex save bonus
 +
|
 +
*Total DR 2 in heavy armor
 +
*Total +2 attack/dam while mounted
 +
|
 +
|-
 +
!5
 +
|
 +
*Automatically succeed animal handling with herbivores, and animals of types of animal companion/mount (does this include "magical beast", or does "type" refer to "species"?
 +
*Bonuses to archery while mounted, instead of penalties (even while moving)
 +
|
 +
*Bonuses to archery while mounted, instead of penalties (even while moving)
 +
|
 +
*Full attacks during a move action (a.k.a., ride-by-attack gets full attacks, a.k.a. holy shit)
 +
*Penalty to weak saves (this is probably actually a typo)
 +
|
 +
|}
  
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I should be able to get regular Elk stats, too, in a bit here. -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]
+
The Camel Archer pretty clearly gets the shaft here. His bonus feats are weaker than the Elk Rider (no damage/attack increases, smaller mounted combat selection, exactly the same skill selection), he gets no divine spellcaster levels, he has a weaker Reflex save until level 4, he doesn't get animal companion stacking, and all he gets in return are dromedary fear (KILLER against horses, useless against anything else), and a token initiative bonus.  
 +
The cavalier is closer to the Elk Rider, but still comes out behind--all his attack/damage bonuses are limited by time period (per day with deadly charge, per hour with burst of speed) and don't apply to ranged weapons, his saves are worse, and he gets no comparable skill bonuses, caster levels or Animal Companion stacking, just some added DR (which isn't nothing, but consider that a Barbarian will have the same DR three levels or so before the Cavalier, without the Heavy Armor requirement).
  
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Elk (via World of Warcraft Manual of Monsters)<br />
+
tl;dr, balance-wise, these guys need work, and Elk-Rider is amazing. -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]
−
Hit Dice: 3d8+9 (22 hp)<br />
+
−
Initiative: +1<br />
+
−
Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares) <br />
+
−
Armor Class: 14(-lsize,+l Dex,+4natural),touch10,ff 13 <br />
+
−
Base Att/Grapp: +2/+12 <br />
+
−
Attack: Hoof +7 Melee (1d6+6) or bite +7 melee (1d8+6) or gore +7 melee (1d8+6)<br />
+
−
full attack: 2 hooves +7 melee(1d6+6) and bite +2 melee (1d8+3) or gore +2 melee (1d8+3)<br />
+
−
space/reach: 10ft/5ft <br />
+
−
special attack: charge <br />
+
−
special qualities: lowlight vision, scent <br />
+
−
saves F/R/W: +6/+4/+2 <br />
+
−
Abilities: str 22, dex 13, con 17, int 2, wis 13, cha 6 <br />
+
−
skills: listen +6 spot +6 <br />
+
−
feats: alertness, endurance <br />
+
−
environment: cold and temperate forest, hill and mountains <br />
+
−
organization: solitary bull,  bachelor group (2-8 bulls) or herd (4-400 cows plus 100% young) <br />
+
−
challenge rating: 1 <br />
+
−
treasure: none <br />
+
−
alignment: neutral <br />
+
−
advancement: 4-10 HD (Large) <br />
+
−
Level Adjustment: -- <br />
+
  
−
By the way, the way this compares to the Heavy Warhorse:
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*4 more Str (so 2 more damage on his attacks)
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Stuff cleared here. [[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]] 10:11, 24 February 2011 (EST)
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*Add special attack: Charge
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*Add attack: Gore (with the same damage and bonus as bite, and substitutable for it on a full attack, so I don't know why. Maybe in case he gets tetanus?)
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*Remove feat: Run
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*Add feat: Alertness
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*1 less HD, which means 1 less base attack and 1 less each of Fort and Ref saves
+
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Everything else is the same, or doesn't matter. -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]
+
−
|}
+

Revision as of 11:11, 24 February 2011

I'd like to make any revisions to this before anyone ends up taking it. Specifically the Exceptional Mount ability. I think it should be brought into line with Animal Companion table. Replace the (% OF Owners Hit Die) with additional hit dice that would stack as animal companion levels. It would mean a lot less hit points, but still waaaaay more than - say - [Tenpence|Tenny], who has proved remarkably resiliant. OTOH, it would give things like new feats, skill points, and other goodies to offset. Thoughts? Particularly Fean, if she's tuned into this channel, since I doubt Al has any interest. He's more like to become an Elk than mount one. Err, unless he's in elk form. -gm

He could turn into Elk form, then mount and Elk.
That was the joke I was trying to make. Damn my typo!
BOOM.
Innuendo aside, keeping Tenpence alive has been a dash of luck mixed with a huge helping of Kib trying to make himself more dangerous than his mount (and succeeding in some ways more than others). Mounted Combat helps, but only with Ride ranks (incidentally, I'm guessing the Improved Mounted Archery ex ability overwrites Mounted Archery? Perhaps the first level of this class should give Mounted Archery just to make the progression clear?
"Improved" versions never stack with their mundane counterparts (see also: Skill Focus), but if you think it needs to be explicit we can do that.
Right, and the wording of the two wouldn't allow them to stack anyway. I don't know how closely the standard feat tree should be tracked--the ranger class already has precedent for skipping prereqs, so it probably works as-is. -Slitherrr
Honestly, the % of Elk Rider Hit Dice is unnecessary since the Animal Companion bonus language is already there. You might want to force the Elk Rider to take the mount as animal companion as a condition of taking the class (since Druids and Rangers, strangely enough, can basically change out animal companions at will, even as sorcs and wizards have to go through the "wait a year and a day" bullshit), and then just remove all the extraneous % of HD and natural armor bonus language (and treat the Elk as being on the 5th-or-greater list, but that might be problematic for Anise at the moment). That Elk is the real feature of the class, and so giving it the possibility of sharing stage time with some other companion seems detrimental.
I meant, is it better to have the bonus hit points come in the form of bonus HD or in the form of a bonus equal to a cut of the master's HP?
I think, since the ranger/druid already have the animal companion mechanics, that it might as well build on them. It seems like the simplest path. -Slitherrr
Also, there's a question of mine below this in its own section. I'm guessing the answer is yes, I just was curious.
What is up with the non-standard reflex progression? I think that should be turned into the same as the fort save, especially since it'll still reach the same max.
If the Elk rider has splashed a Druid level, can the "existing divine caster" levels count as Druid? If you got a min/maxer in the party (not in this group, since you could deal with it, but in case some OTHER group wanted to use this class), he could be a 1 Druid/X Ranger, get all the Ranger-like combat bonuses, then get a hefty spell boost when taking Elk Rider, at a relatively small cost (alternatively, Cleric, for a less-synergistic but probably even more powerful splash). This isn't a big deal, and I don't know a good solution for it, it just popped into my head. Maybe make it to "highest existing divine caster level"?
Why would I make this an exception to every other "+1 Caster Level" prestige class?
Works for me. -Slitherrr
Overall, if this class has a problem, it's closer to the side of too powerful than not powerful enough. Amazing Ranger-like combat progression, great animal companion synergies, awesome saves, and the availability of a pretty great animal companion--this is basically a Sidhe love-song. -Slitherrr
Hm. ok.

Animal Companion Level Stacking

So Elk Rider levels count Druid-style, right? I.e., a 3/5/2 Druid/Ranger/Elk Rider would have 3 + (5/2 round down = 2) + 2 = 7 animal-companion-counting levels? -Slitherrr

That is so.


Candidates for other skills (from either Druid or Ranger lists):

  • Spellcraft (druid)
  • Diplomacy (druid)
  • Knowledge (dungeoneering) (ranger)
  • Knowledge (geography) (ranger)
  • Profession (both)
  • Use Rope (ranger)
  • Hide (ranger)
  • Move Silently (ranger)

Hide/Move Silently would be very in line with nature stuff and stealthiness, but very strange on a mounted prestige class. Use Rope and the two Knowledges are a little general-use and can probably be left off. Profession is on basically every list, but it's really made more for base classes than prestige (and barely matters anyway). Diplomacy is used with wild empathy, which both Ranger and Druid have, but the skill is only a class skill for druids (and is a little "soft" for this prestige, which is more martial). Spellcraft probably deserves to stay off for the same reason. All told, the list as it is is probably fine--arguments could be made for hide/move silent, but they just don't really fit with a mounted class. -Slitherrr

Comparison with other animal-rider classes

I think it might be prudent to look at this side-by-side with the other rider classes just so we get a feel for balance.

Level Elk Rider Camel Archer Cavalier All
1
  • Strong Reflex +1)
  • Bows eligible for specialization
  • Full move in brush on mount
  • Add Prestige levels to Ranger/Druid for animal companion
  • Strong Reflex
  • fear effect on horses
  • Skill mastery, ride, exceptional mount only
  • Bonus to Knowledge(Nobility)
  • Charge multiplier goes up one step (x4 with lance) once per day
  • Strong Fort
  • Exceptional Mount
  • Fighter BaB progression
2
  • +1 existing divine spellcaster level
  • skill mastery, ride, exceptional mount only
  • bonus feat (bow- or skill-related, including bow specialization)
  • bonus feat (skills, endurance, ride-by-attack)
  • DR 1 in heavy armor only
  • +1 attack/dam while mounted
3
  • Improved Mounted Archery
  • Skill mastery, survival (mounted only?)
  • Improved Mounted Archery
  • +2 initiative while mounted
  • 4x move charge 1/hour
  • 1 more deadly charge per day
4
  • bonus feat (bow- or skill-related, including bow specialization)
  • skill mastery, animal handling
  • +1 divine spellcaster level
  • skill mastery, survival
  • bonus feat (skills, endurance, ride-by-attack)
  • catch up to Elk Rider Reflex save bonus
  • Total DR 2 in heavy armor
  • Total +2 attack/dam while mounted
5
  • Automatically succeed animal handling with herbivores, and animals of types of animal companion/mount (does this include "magical beast", or does "type" refer to "species"?
  • Bonuses to archery while mounted, instead of penalties (even while moving)
  • Bonuses to archery while mounted, instead of penalties (even while moving)
  • Full attacks during a move action (a.k.a., ride-by-attack gets full attacks, a.k.a. holy shit)
  • Penalty to weak saves (this is probably actually a typo)

The Camel Archer pretty clearly gets the shaft here. His bonus feats are weaker than the Elk Rider (no damage/attack increases, smaller mounted combat selection, exactly the same skill selection), he gets no divine spellcaster levels, he has a weaker Reflex save until level 4, he doesn't get animal companion stacking, and all he gets in return are dromedary fear (KILLER against horses, useless against anything else), and a token initiative bonus. The cavalier is closer to the Elk Rider, but still comes out behind--all his attack/damage bonuses are limited by time period (per day with deadly charge, per hour with burst of speed) and don't apply to ranged weapons, his saves are worse, and he gets no comparable skill bonuses, caster levels or Animal Companion stacking, just some added DR (which isn't nothing, but consider that a Barbarian will have the same DR three levels or so before the Cavalier, without the Heavy Armor requirement).

tl;dr, balance-wise, these guys need work, and Elk-Rider is amazing. -Slitherrr

Stuff cleared here. Slitherrr 10:11, 24 February 2011 (EST)

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