Revision as of 14:02, 24 February 2011

I'd like to make any revisions to this before anyone ends up taking it. Specifically the Exceptional Mount ability. I think it should be brought into line with Animal Companion table. Replace the (% OF Owners Hit Die) with additional hit dice that would stack as animal companion levels. It would mean a lot less hit points, but still waaaaay more than - say - [Tenpence|Tenny], who has proved remarkably resiliant. OTOH, it would give things like new feats, skill points, and other goodies to offset. Thoughts? Particularly Fean, if she's tuned into this channel, since I doubt Al has any interest. He's more like to become an Elk than mount one. Err, unless he's in elk form. -gm

He could turn into Elk form, then mount and Elk.

That was the joke I was trying to make. Damn my typo!

BOOM.

Innuendo aside, keeping Tenpence alive has been a dash of luck mixed with a huge helping of Kib trying to make himself more dangerous than his mount (and succeeding in some ways more than others). Mounted Combat helps, but only with Ride ranks (incidentally, I'm guessing the Improved Mounted Archery ex ability overwrites Mounted Archery? Perhaps the first level of this class should give Mounted Archery just to make the progression clear?

"Improved" versions never stack with their mundane counterparts (see also: Skill Focus), but if you think it needs to be explicit we can do that.

Right, and the wording of the two wouldn't allow them to stack anyway. I don't know how closely the standard feat tree should be tracked--the ranger class already has precedent for skipping prereqs, so it probably works as-is. -Slitherrr

Honestly, the % of Elk Rider Hit Dice is unnecessary since the Animal Companion bonus language is already there. You might want to force the Elk Rider to take the mount as animal companion as a condition of taking the class (since Druids and Rangers, strangely enough, can basically change out animal companions at will, even as sorcs and wizards have to go through the "wait a year and a day" bullshit), and then just remove all the extraneous % of HD and natural armor bonus language (and treat the Elk as being on the 5th-or-greater list, but that might be problematic for Anise at the moment). That Elk is the real feature of the class, and so giving it the possibility of sharing stage time with some other companion seems detrimental.

I meant, is it better to have the bonus hit points come in the form of bonus HD or in the form of a bonus equal to a cut of the master's HP?

I think, since the ranger/druid already have the animal companion mechanics, that it might as well build on them. It seems like the simplest path. -Slitherrr

Also, there's a question of mine below this in its own section. I'm guessing the answer is yes, I just was curious.

What is up with the non-standard reflex progression? I think that should be turned into the same as the fort save, especially since it'll still reach the same max.

If the Elk rider has splashed a Druid level, can the "existing divine caster" levels count as Druid? If you got a min/maxer in the party (not in this group, since you could deal with it, but in case some OTHER group wanted to use this class), he could be a 1 Druid/X Ranger, get all the Ranger-like combat bonuses, then get a hefty spell boost when taking Elk Rider, at a relatively small cost (alternatively, Cleric, for a less-synergistic but probably even more powerful splash). This isn't a big deal, and I don't know a good solution for it, it just popped into my head. Maybe make it to "highest existing divine caster level"?

Why would I make this an exception to every other "+1 Caster Level" prestige class?

Works for me. -Slitherrr

Overall, if this class has a problem, it's closer to the side of too powerful than not powerful enough. Amazing Ranger-like combat progression, great animal companion synergies, awesome saves, and the availability of a pretty great animal companion--this is basically a Sidhe love-song. -Slitherrr

Hm. ok.

Animal Companion Level Stacking

So Elk Rider levels count Druid-style, right? I.e., a 3/5/2 Druid/Ranger/Elk Rider would have 3 + (5/2 round down = 2) + 2 = 7 animal-companion-counting levels? -Slitherrr

That is so.

Candidates for other skills (from either Druid or Ranger lists):

• Spellcraft (druid)
• Diplomacy (druid)
• Knowledge (dungeoneering) (ranger)
• Knowledge (geography) (ranger)
• Profession (both)
• Use Rope (ranger)
• Hide (ranger)
• Move Silently (ranger)

Hide/Move Silently would be very in line with nature stuff and stealthiness, but very strange on a mounted prestige class. Use Rope and the two Knowledges are a little general-use and can probably be left off. Profession is on basically every list, but it's really made more for base classes than prestige (and barely matters anyway). Diplomacy is used with wild empathy, which both Ranger and Druid have, but the skill is only a class skill for druids (and is a little "soft" for this prestige, which is more martial). Spellcraft probably deserves to stay off for the same reason. All told, the list as it is is probably fine--arguments could be made for hide/move silent, but they just don't really fit with a mounted class. -Slitherrr

Comparison with other animal-rider classes

I think it might be prudent to look at this side-by-side with the other rider classes just so we get a feel for balance.

The Camel Archer pretty clearly gets the shaft here. His bonus feats are weaker than the Elk Rider (no damage/attack increases, smaller mounted combat selection, exactly the same skill selection), he gets no divine spellcaster levels, he has a weaker Reflex save until level 4, he doesn't get animal companion stacking, and all he gets in return are dromedary fear (KILLER against horses, useless against anything else), and a token initiative bonus.

The cavalier is closer to the Elk Rider, but still comes out behind--all his attack/damage bonuses are limited by time period (per day with deadly charge, per hour with burst of speed) and don't apply to ranged weapons, his saves are worse, and he gets no comparable skill bonuses, caster levels or Animal Companion stacking, just some added DR (which isn't nothing, but consider that a Barbarian will have the same DR three levels or so before the Cavalier, without the Heavy Armor requirement). His main saving grace is the full-attack ride-by-attack ability, which is freaking amazing, and makes up for a lot. Also, two more hit points per level, which I had missed before.

tl;dr, balance-wise, these guys need work, and Elk-Rider is amazing. -Slitherrr

I forgot the Dog Rider up there, but he's basically equivalent to the Camel Archer--no bonus feats, skill mastery:ride doesn't apply just to exceptional mount, additional charge bonuses, fewer skill points, and the same save typo the Cavalier has.

I strongly disagree, and feel that you are VERY MUCH overvaluing the token increase to spell selection. I also disagree strongly with your assessment of the Dog Rider vis a vis the Camel Archer. There are all kinds of strong abilities for each of these three classes that don't even seem to enter your calculations at all. -gm

Stuff cleared here. Slitherrr 10:11, 24 February 2011 (EST)