Difference between revisions of "Talk:Flame Disciple"

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Draft moved to the top. Other stuff at the bottom, some hidden in collapsible tables.-[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]
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==Draft==
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Alright, this is what I've come up with. Saving throws are blanked, but I expect Will is strong, and Fort and Ref are weak. I'm willing to hear arguments to the contrary, naturally, but that's my initial inclination. d8 HD is clearly far too much, but considering the HP sacrificing mechanic and the severely reduced caster progression, d6 is very reasonable. I ditched the "becoming a half elemental" idea - sort of - instead migrating that ability to the familiar to give some kind of ability gain on the even (caster increase) levels. Increased the spell prereqs to bring in line with other specialist prestige classes. Persistent damage is something I try to avoid for sanity sake, but liked having a offensive defense ability and tried to compensate with a more potent single round of damage. Finally, added a mechanic that *might* be a tad to complicated (but I don't think so) in order to create a "fire storm" sort of mechanic that is still tied to spell slots rather than special abilities.
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Input encouraged.
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{{talk|indent=2|With the Nova ability as it stands, there's a good argument for Fort to be the strong save. We could argue that a flame disciple isn't really as concerned about self-control as a normal sorc/wizzie. |[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]] 15:20, 28 October 2010 (EDT)}}
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: That's kind of why I gave the Attribute Bonus to saves. I'm down with making fort one of the strong saves, but I'd probably want to drop the bonus, which really is just one more layer of complexity anyway. Hmm. Also, FWIW, the caster has an innate fire resist of 15 by the time she can nova, which would certainly apply to any damage. -gm
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:: Right, with the resistance, the Nova doesn't do horrible damage. At the higher levels, though, a successful fort save becomes the difference between taking (on average) 22ish damage, or taking zero. I'm totally fine with no attribute bonuses to save, for the complexity reason, too.-[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]
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::: Also, note that I said "the" strong save, not "a" strong save. -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]
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:::: Ahh, of course. I like it. -gm
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{{draft}}
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'''Description:''' In Flux
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----
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==More Numbers==
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{| class="wikitable" style="width:50%;"
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!colspan=7|Average Dmg(resisted dmg) as Caster Stat (x) vs Sacrificed Spell Level (y)
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|-
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!  !!          0!!          1!!          2!!          3!!          4!!          5
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|-
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| 1||  3.5 (1.75)||  5.5 (2.75)||  7.5 (3.75)||  9.5 (4.75)|| 11.5 (5.75)|| 13.5 (6.75)
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|-
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| 2||  7.0  (3.5)|| 10.0  (5.0)|| 13.0  (6.5)|| 16.0  (8.0)|| 19.0  (9.5)|| 22.0 (11.0)
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|-
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| 3|| 10.5 (5.25)|| 14.5 (7.25)|| 18.5 (9.25)|| 22.5(11.25)|| 26.5(13.25)|| 30.5(15.25)
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|-
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| 4|| 14.0  (7.0)|| 19.0  (9.5)|| 24.0 (12.0)|| 29.0 (14.5)|| 34.0 (17.0)|| 39.0 (19.5)
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|-
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| 5|| 17.5 (8.75)|| 23.5(11.75)|| 29.5(14.75)|| 35.5(17.75)|| 41.5(20.75)|| 47.5(23.75)
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|}
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-[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]
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If we consider this a showcase ability for the FD, I think this may be a tad underpowered. Consider a sorc 8/FD 5 could cast a fireball (level 3 spell) and do 10d6+5 damage at a range of up to 400 ft + something crazy, or he could nova with  a 15' radius with a level 4 spell and do (4d4+(cha bonus, let's say three, times four) damage (he can't even do a level 5 spell at this level, yet). The latter is clearly a lot less, for the sacrifice of a higher-level spell slot and the ability to damage at range AND the larger radius of the fireball (15' vs 20'), although with the benefit of no components (which implies the ability to nova while bound) and no casting time (vs a standard action).
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I think we could solve these problems by scaling radius with FD level (or rather, with level of spell sacrificed). -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]
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: I agree, I think that radius of 5' per spell level sacrificed is a good one, too. Starting to make the ability kind of rules-heavy, but I guess that's just the nature of the beast. -gm
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: Scaling the radius by FD level is not a bad idea. I'm not sure it's that underpowered considering one of the trade offs (nova damage) is mitigated by resist (15, 20, or 25 depending on level) Pete could shrug off level 1 or 2 novas with failed saves, and even lvl 3 ones with a successful one. Also: I think you're misreading the damage? It's not Lvld4 + MOD, it's (d4+MOD)/Lvl. -gm
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:: Yeah, I was factoring that in. The damage calculations in the table are (d4+mod)*lvl, even if I might have said it the wrong way up there. I'm just wondering if the ability to cast instantly with no components is worth the difference in levels. Consider that a level 3 nova is 22.5 damage (assuming +3 from cha) in a 15' radius on average. At the same minimum level (6 sorc + 3 FD = caster level 7, if he goes straight for FD), he's getting 7d6 + 3 from his fireball, averaging 27.5 in a 20' radius (with more variance than the nova). If we go to level 4 (as above), then we're at a minimum of sorc 8 FD 4, so a 10d6 + 4 = 39ish avg fireball vs. 29ish (again, +3, a +4 makes it 34) avg nova, with the fireball in a larger radius, at range, AND using a level lower spell slot, at the cost of being a standard action rather than a free (or swift, more likely, since I doubt you want this more than once per turn). That's the argument, without considering the self-damage aspect. My thought is that making the range scale would give it a usefulness that none of the other fire spells have, without having to crank the damage up to stupid levels. -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]
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::: Ahh. FWIW, I'd suggest that by getting to Nova, the character would have at least gotten 2 points of their primary attribute from level gains and probably have a +4, but I doubt that's much of a difference. Additionally, I think that the damage output for this ability *should* be less than a spell cast of the same level sacrificed, though the question of "how much less" is in play.
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::: 1. Damage drop is balanced by versatility. The FD can scale damage depending on threat, or be more discriminate about what spell levels to lose.
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::: 2. Fireball is the grandfathered-in-overpowered spell for that level and isn't a great comparison. How does the first level nova compare to burning hands, or the second level one to Flaming Sphere? Pretty well, I'd argue. Possibly better. If there is some damage-scale-dropoff at the ceiling spell levels... so be it. The re-purposing of low level, borderline obsolete spells might be value enough.
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::: 3. The ability *should* do less damage, with less variance, because of the risks involved in using it.
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::: 4. As you indicate, it is a standard action. Unlike a cast spell, it does not require V, S, or M components or, most importantly for trying to drop a FB on yourself when swarmed, does not trigger attacks of opportunity.
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::: 5. Did I mention it doesn't trigger attacks of opportunity? Being snarky, sure, but to me, <b>this</b> is the core strength of the ability. Imagine Thoven surrounded by 5 kobolds. He can cast a FB on himself and wipe them out, but he has an AC of 11 and is going to have to shrug of five free attacks before he gets that chance, and then has to succeed on a concentration check based on the cumulative amount of damage suffered by those AoOs.
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:::: I agree that the non-AoO nature is a big gain. I'll run the numbers on Flaming Hands and Burning Sphere and see what I get, there. I'll run it on Fire Shield, too, but that will have a huge caveat that the damage is reactive, not AoE (plus a shielding affect against cold/fire damage, to make things more complicated). Basically, the question isn't whether it should do as much damage as a fireball (because it definitely shouldn't), but whether there is a vast enough difference in the damages to justify tweaking the nova a bit despite its advantages. -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]
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::::: Ok. For the same 5 FD/8 Sorc, but assuming +4 to caster attribute, Flaming Sphere (lvl 2 spell) is 120 damage average over a 10-round span at a range of up to 200' (2d6+5, move action, does not provoke AoO, and unresisted), vs 19 average per target from the same-level nova, but in one round, AoE, for a free action with no components, which compares favorably in the really short term, and it could conceivably do as much damage if enough enemies (6.4ish) can be crowded into that 15' radius circle (who don't resist). Burning Hands (level 1) does 7.5 avg (5d4 + 5) to 1/4 of the area of the nova, to which the nova compares very favorably (11.5 average damage to a larger area with a faster casting time). In other words, its low-level versions are very comparatively efficient, the gains of which then taper out. There aren't any other fire spells that do damage until FD5/Sorc 14 (the spell is Incendiary Cloud, though, which does a megafuckload of damage, basically an AoE version of Flaming Sphere that does twice as much damage and only allows save for half). This seems like an incentive for the FD to spam low-level spell slots for nova, and save his higher slots for empowered/maximized fireballs, which may or may not be fine, depending on how you want it to go. I'm still for making the range depend on level--given the numbers above, ranging it at, say, 5'/level sacrificed seems like it would keep the ability useful, but not as awesome for spamming, at lower levels, while slightly increasing its danger at the higher levels, making it more likely that the FD will find it worthwhile to sacrifice the slot and HP for such a cast. -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]
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: Well, I'd say most sorcs probably do not have a lot of metamagic feats because it takes a full round action to apply metamagic to sorc spells, and - as a casterphiliac - I find that the damage increasing feats are usually not worthwhile. An empowered fireball is like a, what, 5th level spell? Yeah, I'd rather cast cloudkill. Maximized fireball is a 6th level spell or something? I'm sure I could find something more useful with a 6th level spell slot than a 60 damage fireball that's only going to end up doing 30. -gm 
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:: For some reason, I read the metamagic feats as having one less addition than they actually had. That being said, we can compare empowered fireball vs. 5th-level nova-- 10sorc 5FD, probably a +4 in cha (possibly +5 if he really worked it) gives 5d4 + 20, averages to 32.5 damage. Empowered fireball is either (10d6 + 5) * 1.5 = 60 average, or 15d6 + 7 = 59 damage average *because I'm not sure when the empowerment works out), giving roughly double the average damage output without self-damage at range in a larger area for the same-level spell, at the cost of not being insta-cast with no components. At that level, a DC 20 defensive casting check is going to be made almost all the time (18 ranks in concentration, so a single con bonus point would be 100% success), so AoO is basically a non-issue. Nova would only win out as a last-ditch attack when bound/grappled/etc, which could conceivably be enough utility to make up for the deficit, but it's a hard question. That said, a 25' radius instead of a 20' radius adds 36 squares of potential targets, which could very easily make up in utility what fireball gains in damage. -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]
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::: Still using a overpowered spell as benchmark, only now jacked up. I like conceptually the larger radius for more powerful spells, it fits with the idea of it being a powerful burst of raw elemental power. But, yeah, I tend to think things like Casting Spells With No AoO is a huge add in terms of power scaling with other abilities.
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:::: Oh, yeah, and if the caster dropped that empowered fireball on himself and the required reflex save (probably at -4) would probably kill him. So, not getting killed because the save plays to your strong save is also bonus. Plus the range. And, at the end of the day, it's better to have an ability get underpowered at the top end than be overpowered at the low end. I think? Maybe not. Some WoW person probably has reams of data about that, actually. -gm
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::::: I'm comparing it to what is there, and I think whether it is actually overpowered is debatable--after all, Cone of Cold (level 5) does up to 15d6 damage to a 60' cone. That's the exact same as the empowered fireball if you don't count the FD bonus (and only seven less if you do), to more than twice the area (1260 ft^2 for the fireball vs. 2830 ft^2 for the cone of cold), as a standard action rather than a full-round action, with its only disadvantage being that you don't have the ability to toss the area an ungodly distance away. Chain lightning (level 6) does up to 20d6 damage to one guy, then half that to selected AoE within a 30' radius (only up to 20 targets, but you can intentionally miss your allies, a big deal with numbers that high) at the same ridiculous range as Firebal. I think the argument that Fireball is overpowered is really a non-starter, given all the other spells that balance right along with it. The AoO bit has a bit more teeth, but like I described up there, the FD/Sorc at these levels is going to make his Concentration roll to cast defensively and thus avoid AoO (level 12 gives 15 ranks, + 4 from Combat Casting, is 100% success for level 5 spells, and that's without Con bonuses, and at a lower level than the FD/Sorc even needs to be able to cast level 5 spells) unless he's being grappled, and even then he's still got a pretty good chance. Nova DOES get a big advantage while pinned, and that is very big, and probably the biggest advantage this ability gets, period, and definitely worth sacrificing some damage to make up for it (escaping smoker tongues, anyone?).
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::::: For that last reason, I've stopped arguing for bumping up the damage for the last couple of exchanges--the numbers are there to underscore my current objective, which is solely on making radius depend on level sacrificed. My reasoning is that a static radius makes it too attractive to run around burning low-level spells every round, and never ever have a reason to burn a high-level spell, which seems like a waste of potential. It seems like, if every single other level 5 option is better except in extreme cases, and in those cases you can get 90% of the efficacy from a nova using a spell slot one or two levels lower, thus saving your Cloud Kill or Empowered Fireball for when you escape those bonds or get out of that grapple, why include it as an option? I don't know if 5'/FD level is optimal in the light of the numbers, because it really diminishes the lower-level damage capacity and only marginally increases the higher-level damage capacity, but since these things have to come in 5' increments, I don't really know any better progression, and it serves my point, which is to spread out the use of this ability among the full spectrum of its capability, rather than limiting its usefulness to a subset of itself. -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]
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::One thing that has just occurred to me, and that hasn't come up yet, is that the damage is heavily dependent on the caster attribute bonus, which can make things a little...crazy. The spread between +0 and +5 on the level 5 nova is 30 points, non-variable. A caster with a +5 from ability bonus, buffed with, say, Eagle's Splendor, gives an ability bonus of +7 and an average damage of 59.5 for a level 5 nova, a full 12 points higher, completely non-variable. It's something to think about. -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]
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:::Of course, this could be self-balancing, with the self-damage aspect, so that might be a non-issue. -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]
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:::: I actually considered a couple of other damage systems for nova. 2d4/level and 2d6/level might be better and simpler options, especially when coupled with scaled AoE, which I really like both conceptually and mechanically. -gm
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----
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{| class="collapsible collapsed wikitable"
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|-
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! Level reqs talk hidden 22:41, 1 November 2010 (EDT) (EDT)
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|-
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|
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{{talk|
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Looking at this just now, I notice that it takes 18 skill ranks (7 spellcraft, 5 know(arc), 6 know (the planes)) for a sorc to get here, making level 7 the first possible FD level for a sorc with no int bonus if he gets skills in nothing but those things (also, coincidentally, the level at which he can get fireball). Wizards have an easier time, of course--they could make level 6 (level 5 being the level for 3rd-level spells), with skill points to spare (15 skill ranks total out of a minimum of 16, and if course wizards will have an int bonus as well). I don't know which of the two fit better, or whether we want to think about requirements, I just wanted to throw that number-crunchy in since I'm waiting for a thing to finish and have little else better to do.
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|[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]] 15:13, 28 October 2010 (EDT)
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}}
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: Sorc gets fireball at level 6. I factored it in to the requirements. are you suggesting that the skill reqs are too high?
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:: I think they're probably exactly right for the sorc, since the sorc would be putting everything in to get it in at the minimum level, which is right about perfect. My bigger question is whether the Wizard should be able to get in earlier, since this class really seems more like a natural-connection-with-magic thing than a studied-for-a-long-time thing, anyway. I also don't know how that discrepancy would be changed, and it's only one level of difference, I was just adding it to the slew of data.-[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]
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::: I don't really mind. Wizards having an easier time getting prestiges than sorcs is par for the course, excepting things like dragon disciple.
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:::: Works for me, then. -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]
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|}
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{| class="collapsible collapsed wikitable"
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|-
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! Numbers here hidden 10:32, 28 October 2010 (EDT)
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|-
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|
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Just to note, here, vulnerability is huuuuge, especially with caster HP. Elementals get away with it because they have tons of d8 HD, and resist tons of other forms of damage, but the poor flame disciple is going to find himself completely down and out even on a successful reflex save and with a decent amount of cold resistance with a single cone of cold, or similar attack. I don't know if any of his other abilities really give him enough damage output to justify that sort of vulnerability, especially if he's losing immunity. -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]
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I like the quality where there is fire everywhere with this guy. I kind of like the nova more than the burning blood ability, although the fact that the blood is a reaction that doesn't take an action probably makes it better. --[[User:146.127.253.12|146.127.253.12]]
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==Numbers==
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Whipped up an app to generate numbers. Here are damage numbers for all the cold spells in the SRD.
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CLvl is caster level, min max and average are for that level, boost are the same but with vulnerability, avgbr## is avgboost with resist of that amount applied before vulnerability.
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It's probably worth pointing out that the min level is based on Wizard caster level. Sorcs will be higher. I also didn't check whether any of them were domain spells that might occur at an earlier level. This also, I just remembered, doesn't include Divine spells--I can add them pretty easily, once I get back to the computer that has the script. -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]
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:Never mind, there are no cold-damage Divine spells. -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]
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::One cold-damage Druid spell (kept here to remember later): [http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/chillMetal.htm Chill Metal]
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<tt>
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Ray of Frost, min caster level 1, Cold Type, Ranged touch attack
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CLvl| min| max|  avg|minboost|maxboost|avgboost|avgbr10|avgbr20|avgbr30
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    1|  1|  3|  2.0|    1.5|    4.5|    3.0|    0.0|    0.0|    0.0
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Cold Shield, min caster level 7, Cold Type, No save
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CLvl| min| max|  avg|minboost|maxboost|avgboost|avgbr10|avgbr20|avgbr30
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    7|  8|  13| 10.0|    12.0|    19.5|    15.0|    0.0|    0.0|    0.0
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    8|  9|  14| 11.0|    13.5|    21.0|    16.5|    1.5|    0.0|    0.0
 +
    9|  10|  15| 12.0|    15.0|    22.5|    18.0|    3.0|    0.0|    0.0
 +
  10|  11|  16| 13.0|    16.5|    24.0|    19.5|    4.5|    0.0|    0.0
 +
  11|  12|  17| 14.0|    18.0|    25.5|    21.0|    6.0|    0.0|    0.0
 +
  12|  13|  18| 15.0|    19.5|    27.0|    22.5|    7.5|    0.0|    0.0
 +
  13|  14|  19| 16.0|    21.0|    28.5|    24.0|    9.0|    0.0|    0.0
 +
  14|  15|  20| 17.0|    22.5|    30.0|    25.5|  10.5|    0.0|    0.0
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  15|  16|  21| 18.0|    24.0|    31.5|    27.0|  12.0|    0.0|    0.0
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Ice Storm, min caster level 7, Cold Type, No save
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CLvl| min| max|  avg|minboost|maxboost|avgboost|avgbr10|avgbr20|avgbr30
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    7|  2|  12|  6.0|    3.0|    18.0|    9.0|    0.0|    0.0|    0.0
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Wall of Ice, min caster level 7, Cold Type, No save
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CLvl| min| max|  avg|minboost|maxboost|avgboost|avgbr10|avgbr20|avgbr30
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    7|  8|  13| 10.0|    12.0|    19.5|    15.0|    0.0|    0.0|    0.0
 +
    8|  9|  14| 11.0|    13.5|    21.0|    16.5|    1.5|    0.0|    0.0
 +
    9|  10|  15| 12.0|    15.0|    22.5|    18.0|    3.0|    0.0|    0.0
 +
  10|  11|  16| 13.0|    16.5|    24.0|    19.5|    4.5|    0.0|    0.0
 +
  11|  12|  17| 14.0|    18.0|    25.5|    21.0|    6.0|    0.0|    0.0
 +
  12|  13|  18| 15.0|    19.5|    27.0|    22.5|    7.5|    0.0|    0.0
 +
  13|  14|  19| 16.0|    21.0|    28.5|    24.0|    9.0|    0.0|    0.0
 +
  14|  15|  20| 17.0|    22.5|    30.0|    25.5|  10.5|    0.0|    0.0
 +
  15|  16|  21| 18.0|    24.0|    31.5|    27.0|  12.0|    0.0|    0.0
 +
  16|  17|  22| 19.0|    25.5|    33.0|    28.5|  13.5|    0.0|    0.0
 +
  17|  18|  23| 20.0|    27.0|    34.5|    30.0|  15.0|    0.0|    0.0
 +
  18|  19|  24| 21.0|    28.5|    36.0|    31.5|  16.5|    1.5|    0.0
 +
  19|  20|  25| 22.0|    30.0|    37.5|    33.0|  18.0|    3.0|    0.0
 +
  20|  21|  26| 23.0|    31.5|    39.0|    34.5|  19.5|    4.5|    0.0
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 +
Cone of Cold, min caster level 9, Cold Type, Save for half
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CLvl| min| max|  avg|minboost|maxboost|avgboost|avgbr10|avgbr20|avgbr30
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    9|  9|  54| 31.0|    13.5|    81.0|    46.5|  31.5|  16.5|    1.5
 +
  10|  10|  60| 35.0|    15.0|    90.0|    52.5|  37.5|  22.5|    7.5
 +
  11|  11|  66| 38.0|    16.5|    99.0|    57.0|  42.0|  27.0|  12.0
 +
  12|  12|  72| 42.0|    18.0|  108.0|    63.0|  48.0|  33.0|  18.0
 +
  13|  13|  78| 45.0|    19.5|  117.0|    67.5|  52.5|  37.5|  22.5
 +
  14|  14|  84| 49.0|    21.0|  126.0|    73.5|  58.5|  43.5|  28.5
 +
  15|  15|  90| 52.0|    22.5|  135.0|    78.0|  63.0|  48.0|  33.0
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 +
Freezing Sphere, min caster level 11, Cold Type, Save for half
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CLvl| min| max|  avg|minboost|maxboost|avgboost|avgbr10|avgbr20|avgbr30
 +
  11|  11|  66| 38.0|    16.5|    99.0|    57.0|  42.0|  27.0|  12.0
 +
  12|  12|  72| 42.0|    18.0|  108.0|    63.0|  48.0|  33.0|  18.0
 +
  13|  13|  78| 45.0|    19.5|  117.0|    67.5|  52.5|  37.5|  22.5
 +
  14|  14|  84| 49.0|    21.0|  126.0|    73.5|  58.5|  43.5|  28.5
 +
  15|  15|  90| 52.0|    22.5|  135.0|    78.0|  63.0|  48.0|  33.0
 +
 +
Polar Ray, min caster level 15, Cold Type, Ranged touch attack
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CLvl| min| max|  avg|minboost|maxboost|avgboost|avgbr10|avgbr20|avgbr30
 +
  15|  15|  90| 52.0|    22.5|  135.0|    78.0|  63.0|  48.0|  33.0
 +
  16|  16|  96| 56.0|    24.0|  144.0|    84.0|  69.0|  54.0|  39.0
 +
  17|  17| 102| 59.0|    25.5|  153.0|    88.5|  73.5|  58.5|  43.5
 +
  18|  18| 108| 63.0|    27.0|  162.0|    94.5|  79.5|  64.5|  49.5
 +
  19|  19| 114| 66.0|    28.5|  171.0|    99.0|  84.0|  69.0|  54.0
 +
  20|  20| 120| 70.0|    30.0|  180.0|  105.0|  90.0|  75.0|  60.0
 +
  21|  21| 126| 73.0|    31.5|  189.0|  109.5|  94.5|  79.5|  64.5
 +
  22|  22| 132| 77.0|    33.0|  198.0|  115.5|  100.5|  85.5|  70.5
 +
  23|  23| 138| 80.0|    34.5|  207.0|  120.0|  105.0|  90.0|  75.0
 +
  24|  24| 144| 84.0|    36.0|  216.0|  126.0|  111.0|  96.0|  81.0
 +
  25|  25| 150| 87.0|    37.5|  225.0|  130.5|  115.5|  100.5|  85.5
 +
 +
</tt>
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Am I reading this table right? I get the impression that vulnerability will increase the damage of cold based spells by between 80% and 150% on average depending on the spell. Double damage from spells does seem pretty rough. --[[User:146.127.253.44|146.127.253.44]]
 +
:Vulnerability adds 50% to damage after resists and so on. The more interesting statistics are the numbers themselves, and whether or not they are enough to, say, kill the vulnerable PC in a single hit with little/no chance of a save after the vulnerability boost. The big ones to worry about are Cone of Cold and Freezing Sphere (Polar Ray is also scary, but it's scary regardless of vulnerability status, and a ranged touch attack does no damage when avoided, compared to half damage on a reflex save, and in addition to DC being easier to add to than reflex). For both CoC and FS, at the min caster level, the boosted damage means there's a good chance of instant Flame Disciple death even on a successful Reflex save for half damage, unless the FD can keep Cold Resist 30 up (and even then, the ''average'' takes him down to ~66% of hp). Jonesy has already opted to ditch vulnerability, so it's an academic point. Once I'm home, I plan to do similar analysis for the damage buffs. I'm less positive what we can compare those to, but it won't hurt to have more data around. -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]
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I've not been playing for a particularly long time, so I have no idea how well (or poorly) balanced this is. Specifically, I'm not sure if the minor elemental storm is actually useful or if it's just cool sounding. I've also thought about spell-like abilities like the following that could be used in place of the ones listed or possibly in the 2nd and 4th level slots:
 
I've not been playing for a particularly long time, so I have no idea how well (or poorly) balanced this is. Specifically, I'm not sure if the minor elemental storm is actually useful or if it's just cool sounding. I've also thought about spell-like abilities like the following that could be used in place of the ones listed or possibly in the 2nd and 4th level slots:
  
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[[User:TooMuchPete|TooMuchPete]] 17:27, 21 June 2010 (EDT)
 
[[User:TooMuchPete|TooMuchPete]] 17:27, 21 June 2010 (EDT)
  
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I'm sure Matt or Slitherrr will chime in on the numbers and rulesy stuff, they're good with that. I like the idea, overall, and think we can do some more interesting stuff with it. First off, as far as becoming half elemental, we can do that. To whit: <a href="http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Templates.pdf">Templates</a>. I'm not sure about the half-elemental in there, but other ones abound, might even have one in a dragon somewhere. Essentally you'd become an Fire Outsider instead of a Humanoid and some other fire related bonuses. I'll put some thought in and see what other kind of suggestions pop up. I think, probably, some of these might be underpowered or impractical (2 minute activation time! That's 20 rounds. The ENTIRE of last sundays game was like 15), and a couple need to be scaled back or gradated or even degradated. I like the idea of taking extra damage from cold, but I don't know that it needs to scale that much. 50% extra at third and double at 5th or something, since working in halves is kind of a mechanical normalcy.  
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! Stuff hidden 10:32, 28 October 2010 (EDT)
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|I'm sure Matt or Slitherrr will chime in on the numbers and rulesy stuff, they're good with that. I like the idea, overall, and think we can do some more interesting stuff with it. First off, as far as becoming half elemental, we can do that. To whit: <a href="http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Templates.pdf">Templates</a>. I'm not sure about the half-elemental in there, but other ones abound, might even have one in a dragon somewhere. Essentally you'd become an Fire Outsider instead of a Humanoid and some other fire related bonuses. I'll put some thought in and see what other kind of suggestions pop up. I think, probably, some of these might be underpowered or impractical (2 minute activation time! That's 20 rounds. The ENTIRE of last sundays game was like 15), and a couple need to be scaled back or gradated or even degradated. I like the idea of taking extra damage from cold, but I don't know that it needs to scale that much. 50% extra at third and double at 5th or something, since working in halves is kind of a mechanical normalcy.  
  
 
Also: If it's going to have one good save, it's will. It's a good start, should be fun to work on -gm
 
Also: If it's going to have one good save, it's will. It's a good start, should be fun to work on -gm
 
:Ditto on will save, but the elemental swarm ability is pulled almost verbatim from the [http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/elementalswarm.htm SRD], so I think its point is to be cast outside of battle. I also agree with the 1/3/5 resist/vulnerability step, for the same reasons, although numbers will take tweaking. Something like 10/20/immune-x1/x1.5/x2 would probably work, although vulnerability in the SRD is only a +50%, so inspecting those numbers might be worthwhile. Perhaps +1d4/+1d8/vulnerability (+50%)? We'll have to look into some cold-damage spells and see what numbers they do to figure those out. Talking in IRC, Pete and I both think that 1d4 is probably too much self-damage per round for self-immolate. Obviously the damage can't be resistible, or it might as well not be there, but having a cost is important, too. It might be best to just make the ability a pure toggle--that would make the self-damage less scary, but allow it to still be the fairly large (for a sorc's hp) 1d4/round amount. -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]
 
:Ditto on will save, but the elemental swarm ability is pulled almost verbatim from the [http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/elementalswarm.htm SRD], so I think its point is to be cast outside of battle. I also agree with the 1/3/5 resist/vulnerability step, for the same reasons, although numbers will take tweaking. Something like 10/20/immune-x1/x1.5/x2 would probably work, although vulnerability in the SRD is only a +50%, so inspecting those numbers might be worthwhile. Perhaps +1d4/+1d8/vulnerability (+50%)? We'll have to look into some cold-damage spells and see what numbers they do to figure those out. Talking in IRC, Pete and I both think that 1d4 is probably too much self-damage per round for self-immolate. Obviously the damage can't be resistible, or it might as well not be there, but having a cost is important, too. It might be best to just make the ability a pure toggle--that would make the self-damage less scary, but allow it to still be the fairly large (for a sorc's hp) 1d4/round amount. -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]
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: Excellent thought. Let me bring a DM's eye to this - the less die the better. I would suggest something more along the lines of sacrificing X HP in order to generate some factor of Xd4 in damage, with a cap influenced by level. It makes the math very easy, and scales with level, which I think is an important aspect of prestige classes. I almost always include at least one scaling ability per package.
 +
:: I think for GENERAL energy resistance, 1/3/5 is the way to go, but for a discrete damage type - especially coupled with a vulnerability - I think 5/10/15 or even 5/10/20 is appropriate. 20 isn't IMMUNE, but you could still probably play at least one game of ping pong while standing in a wall of fire. 
 +
::: This is hard to balance. Those are pretty small numbers when you start talking about the sorts of damage fire can do, ESPECIALLY if coupled with vulnerability. I say that, if the resistance numbers are this "small" (and it's pretty small, since fire spells really start racking up the damage at higher levels, and it's not like this resist can stack with Resist Energy casts), we should consider also really reducing the cold vulnerability, or removing it altogether. After all, elementals aren't vulnerable to opposite-aligned elemental spells, the vulnerability was just to balance the fairly powerful (on a PC) immunity, and possibly other abilities.
 +
:::: Yeah, balance tweaking is in order here, but I don't think something like 5xDisciple Level in Flame DR is bad. 25 is quite a lot of resistance. The spells it won't soak up most of are things like delayed blast, which you don't need to be shrugging off, regardless. For any of the spells involved in the self-center mechanic, it should be more than enough - especially if that DR is doubled for that specific purpose.
 +
:::: Oh, and elementals most certainly DO have vulnerabilities to opposite alignment. It's right there under "Special Qualities." Of course, it's not scaling, it's just <i>Some creatures have vulnerability to a certain kind of energy effect (typically either cold or fire). Such a creature takes half again as much (+50%) damage as normal from the effect, regardless of whether a saving throw is allowed, or if the save is a success or failure. </i>. I do like this idea, but perhaps as part of the level 5 "turning into a half elemental" package. -gm
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::::: Holy fuck, how did I miss the vulnerability every single time I looked at that page, and the qualities section on same? Damn, man. But yeah, the vulnerability comes along with immunity, so 25 DR with 2.0x puts him at a severe disadvantage by comparison. I dunno, needz tweakz, but that's probably a secondary concern right now anyway.-[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]
  
 
::It feels somewhat weird to go from 1d8 to +50%, as it's not difficult to imagine a situation in which +8 would be more than 50% of the incoming damage. +25% might be awkward to do at level 3, and x2.0 might be a little high, but I think the x2 could be balanced a bit by adding another ability or somehow improving the survivability a bit in some other way. --[[User:TooMuchPete|TooMuchPete]] 11:15, 22 June 2010 (EDT)
 
::It feels somewhat weird to go from 1d8 to +50%, as it's not difficult to imagine a situation in which +8 would be more than 50% of the incoming damage. +25% might be awkward to do at level 3, and x2.0 might be a little high, but I think the x2 could be balanced a bit by adding another ability or somehow improving the survivability a bit in some other way. --[[User:TooMuchPete|TooMuchPete]] 11:15, 22 June 2010 (EDT)
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: I'd prefer not to add extra dice in the singular, so for something like cold vulnerability, the more likely way to go is a penalty to save coupled with some straight % of damage increase.
  
 
:Also, the extent of transformation into an Elemental type would matter, since there are attributes that apply.
 
:Also, the extent of transformation into an Elemental type would matter, since there are attributes that apply.
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5 and 6 obviously don't apply, and 3 and 4 probably don't, since crits/flanking is based on not having a discernible front or anatomy, and the usual trope for 4 is for members of transformation PrCs to still count as their base type for purposes of resurrection (not that it matters in THIS particular campaign), but the rest are fair game. The dragon disciple even gains stats, but I think that the spells and extraordinary abilities offset that particular bit for this guy. -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]
 
5 and 6 obviously don't apply, and 3 and 4 probably don't, since crits/flanking is based on not having a discernible front or anatomy, and the usual trope for 4 is for members of transformation PrCs to still count as their base type for purposes of resurrection (not that it matters in THIS particular campaign), but the rest are fair game. The dragon disciple even gains stats, but I think that the spells and extraordinary abilities offset that particular bit for this guy. -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]
  
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:: Yeah. I think a full on elemental type would me a little much. There are two or three different half-elemental templates floating around out there, to say nothing of a character race set (the Gensai, et al) based around half elementalism. The 5th level of the prestige class could be the acquisition of the template, which I think is preferable to a wholesale race substitution. But, either way, I think Outsider (Fire) getting added is a given considering the description.
 +
::: Right. PrCs of this sort generally add a creature type, rather than substituting one completely (so Humanoid/Fire Elemental, or Humanoid/Outsider(Fire), which is a difference in degree), generally meaning that effects that target one or the other will affect the character (with some exceptions made, like being able to be resurrected and whatnot). -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]
  
 
Most of the additional ideas above seem impractical or not terribly useful, but I'd like to find a way to work Wildfire in. The two big problems I see with it now are: a) It would need to use a spell slot. Maybe level 1 or 2? Otherwise I could imagine it being a bit over-powered. b) there aren't a ton of spells that actually set the enemy on fire, so there's not a ton of usefulness to it.  The only solution I could see to that is that fire damage dealt could have a chance to set the target on fire (maybe coupled with self-immolate?). That might be more useful than the Minor Elemental Swarm, which I added just because sounds cool. --[[User:TooMuchPete|TooMuchPete]] 11:15, 22 June 2010 (EDT)
 
Most of the additional ideas above seem impractical or not terribly useful, but I'd like to find a way to work Wildfire in. The two big problems I see with it now are: a) It would need to use a spell slot. Maybe level 1 or 2? Otherwise I could imagine it being a bit over-powered. b) there aren't a ton of spells that actually set the enemy on fire, so there's not a ton of usefulness to it.  The only solution I could see to that is that fire damage dealt could have a chance to set the target on fire (maybe coupled with self-immolate?). That might be more useful than the Minor Elemental Swarm, which I added just because sounds cool. --[[User:TooMuchPete|TooMuchPete]] 11:15, 22 June 2010 (EDT)
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:Well, if it uses a spell slot, you might be better off just adding a fire-only spell slot to the class at the levels where he gains caster level, and then fleshing Wildfire out into a spell. Extraordinary/supernatural abilities tend to be limited by the x/day thing, or by repercussions (i.e. self-damage), or not limited at all.-[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]
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:: s/Wildfire/Self-immolate. Damn your WoW-centric vocabulary! -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]
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::: Alright, I like the idea of where you're going with this, but I think that the stuff gained by the class needs to not be a spell like ability, but rather things that augment your spells. Consider, perhaps, the ability to cast any fire spell as a 10' radius (it could grow with character levels) spell centered on yourself. Either a set number of times per day, perhaps based on an attribute, or as a metamagic feat with sometihng like +1 spell level. You'd damage yourself, getting the immolation idea in, but the elemental resistance would eat up a lot of that. If the math works out to be too punishing, we could have the innate DR double when using the ability (so 5/10/20 or 30 becomes 10/20/40 or 60). So, for example, you could cast Burning Hands as a radius effect spell on yourself and you'd take whatever damage your fire resistance did not eat up, or a Searing Ray, or a Fireball or whatever.
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::: Better, even, if the DR scales something like 5 per level, maxing out at 25 at level five? Likewise, perhaps, the character level would restrict the spell level for the ability: first level could only cast first level spells that way, through 5th level. Anything higher than that, really, even with 40 or 60 DR you might kill yourself.
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::: As for Elemental Swarm - I think, especially considering you're going for the Pseudodragon, you would be better of developing it as a spell that you can pick up at the appropriate level. Something like what you are looking for, in spell form, probably exists in the wild
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Thoughts? -gm
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: For the record, I see that there are two options as far as the immolation thing goes - the metamagic feat or extraordinary ability  that turns spells into radius effects or a scaling X nonpreventable damage for Yd4 effect. I prefer the former, because it has built in scaling (by picking the spell) and mimics in mechanics what I think you are going for (centering firestorms on yourself.)
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: As for the firestorm idea, another option would be to include a metamagic feat that allows you to learn any elemntal tag spell as a fire version of that spell. So, cone of cold becomes cone of fire, etc. This way, there are actually a couple of options for firestorms at various levels, allowing you to get one or both. Ice Storm, which also impairs movement, and Acid Raid (or some such) which just does a megafuck damage. I think this is preferable, again, because it keeps the primary engine of your damage as the spell slot.
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::I think we might be combing two different ideas here that I had not intended to be related. The tl;dr on self-immolation (as I've proposed it) is a damage buff to fire-spells that costs HP. The small, caster-centered AOE is more of a result of the way the ability was conceived... which is basically that the caster becomes engulfed in raging flames, doing damage to himself and surroundings, but making his fire spells more powerful. Wildfire is more of a way to make fire contagious. When the ability is used, enemies who are on fire have a chance to set nearby enemies on fire, too. [[User:TooMuchPete|TooMuchPete]] 11:07, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
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I updated the article to reflect something of a consensus on the way to do fire resist (FR 5x Disciple Level), although I'm still not sure the best way to handle cold damage. In Elementals, Immunity to fire yields +50% cold damage, so anything that big seems like it would be bad news. One suggestion from [[slitherrr] was +1 to each cold damage die rolled, which is significant at high levels without being absurd. That would make sense to take effect on the 5th level. If something was needed in the interim, +1 per 2 dice could be done at level 3 or something.
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I moved caster level advancement from levels 1,3,5 to levels 2,4 to provide a bit of room to do more fun stuff.
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I also removed Minor Elemental Swarm -- the idea is neat, but it seems impractical and like it would be rarely used for it to be a 5th level ability.
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Some ideas so far for filling in other abilities (etc):
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* Metamagic feats don't cost anything for fire-based spells
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* Possibly the option between two different styles of new metamagic feat:
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** Fire spells all get a knockback/knockdown, or
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** Fire spells apply a damage over time effect
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* A caster-centered explosion (presumably to deal with being swarmed)
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* The ability to learn druid/cleric/etc fire spells at some sort of level penalty
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I'm open to suggestions for others, it seems (at least to me) like there's a bit of room to push more cool stuff in without making the class over-powered.
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-[[User:TooMuchPete|TooMuchPete]] 17:07, 23 June 2010 (EDT)

Latest revision as of 10:13, 26 March 2012

Draft moved to the top. Other stuff at the bottom, some hidden in collapsible tables.-Slitherrr

Draft

Alright, this is what I've come up with. Saving throws are blanked, but I expect Will is strong, and Fort and Ref are weak. I'm willing to hear arguments to the contrary, naturally, but that's my initial inclination. d8 HD is clearly far too much, but considering the HP sacrificing mechanic and the severely reduced caster progression, d6 is very reasonable. I ditched the "becoming a half elemental" idea - sort of - instead migrating that ability to the familiar to give some kind of ability gain on the even (caster increase) levels. Increased the spell prereqs to bring in line with other specialist prestige classes. Persistent damage is something I try to avoid for sanity sake, but liked having a offensive defense ability and tried to compensate with a more potent single round of damage. Finally, added a mechanic that *might* be a tad to complicated (but I don't think so) in order to create a "fire storm" sort of mechanic that is still tied to spell slots rather than special abilities.

Input encouraged.


Speechbub.png Comment
With the Nova ability as it stands, there's a good argument for Fort to be the strong save. We could argue that a flame disciple isn't really as concerned about self-control as a normal sorc/wizzie.
--Slitherrr 15:20, 28 October 2010 (EDT)
That's kind of why I gave the Attribute Bonus to saves. I'm down with making fort one of the strong saves, but I'd probably want to drop the bonus, which really is just one more layer of complexity anyway. Hmm. Also, FWIW, the caster has an innate fire resist of 15 by the time she can nova, which would certainly apply to any damage. -gm
Right, with the resistance, the Nova doesn't do horrible damage. At the higher levels, though, a successful fort save becomes the difference between taking (on average) 22ish damage, or taking zero. I'm totally fine with no attribute bonuses to save, for the complexity reason, too.-Slitherrr
Also, note that I said "the" strong save, not "a" strong save. -Slitherrr
Ahh, of course. I like it. -gm

This article is a draft. Its content is likely to change, possibly drastically, in the near future.

Description: In Flux


More Numbers

Average Dmg(resisted dmg) as Caster Stat (x) vs Sacrificed Spell Level (y)
0 1 2 3 4 5
1 3.5 (1.75) 5.5 (2.75) 7.5 (3.75) 9.5 (4.75) 11.5 (5.75) 13.5 (6.75)
2 7.0 (3.5) 10.0 (5.0) 13.0 (6.5) 16.0 (8.0) 19.0 (9.5) 22.0 (11.0)
3 10.5 (5.25) 14.5 (7.25) 18.5 (9.25) 22.5(11.25) 26.5(13.25) 30.5(15.25)
4 14.0 (7.0) 19.0 (9.5) 24.0 (12.0) 29.0 (14.5) 34.0 (17.0) 39.0 (19.5)
5 17.5 (8.75) 23.5(11.75) 29.5(14.75) 35.5(17.75) 41.5(20.75) 47.5(23.75)

-Slitherrr

If we consider this a showcase ability for the FD, I think this may be a tad underpowered. Consider a sorc 8/FD 5 could cast a fireball (level 3 spell) and do 10d6+5 damage at a range of up to 400 ft + something crazy, or he could nova with a 15' radius with a level 4 spell and do (4d4+(cha bonus, let's say three, times four) damage (he can't even do a level 5 spell at this level, yet). The latter is clearly a lot less, for the sacrifice of a higher-level spell slot and the ability to damage at range AND the larger radius of the fireball (15' vs 20'), although with the benefit of no components (which implies the ability to nova while bound) and no casting time (vs a standard action).

I think we could solve these problems by scaling radius with FD level (or rather, with level of spell sacrificed). -Slitherrr

I agree, I think that radius of 5' per spell level sacrificed is a good one, too. Starting to make the ability kind of rules-heavy, but I guess that's just the nature of the beast. -gm
Scaling the radius by FD level is not a bad idea. I'm not sure it's that underpowered considering one of the trade offs (nova damage) is mitigated by resist (15, 20, or 25 depending on level) Pete could shrug off level 1 or 2 novas with failed saves, and even lvl 3 ones with a successful one. Also: I think you're misreading the damage? It's not Lvld4 + MOD, it's (d4+MOD)/Lvl. -gm
Yeah, I was factoring that in. The damage calculations in the table are (d4+mod)*lvl, even if I might have said it the wrong way up there. I'm just wondering if the ability to cast instantly with no components is worth the difference in levels. Consider that a level 3 nova is 22.5 damage (assuming +3 from cha) in a 15' radius on average. At the same minimum level (6 sorc + 3 FD = caster level 7, if he goes straight for FD), he's getting 7d6 + 3 from his fireball, averaging 27.5 in a 20' radius (with more variance than the nova). If we go to level 4 (as above), then we're at a minimum of sorc 8 FD 4, so a 10d6 + 4 = 39ish avg fireball vs. 29ish (again, +3, a +4 makes it 34) avg nova, with the fireball in a larger radius, at range, AND using a level lower spell slot, at the cost of being a standard action rather than a free (or swift, more likely, since I doubt you want this more than once per turn). That's the argument, without considering the self-damage aspect. My thought is that making the range scale would give it a usefulness that none of the other fire spells have, without having to crank the damage up to stupid levels. -Slitherrr
Ahh. FWIW, I'd suggest that by getting to Nova, the character would have at least gotten 2 points of their primary attribute from level gains and probably have a +4, but I doubt that's much of a difference. Additionally, I think that the damage output for this ability *should* be less than a spell cast of the same level sacrificed, though the question of "how much less" is in play.
1. Damage drop is balanced by versatility. The FD can scale damage depending on threat, or be more discriminate about what spell levels to lose.
2. Fireball is the grandfathered-in-overpowered spell for that level and isn't a great comparison. How does the first level nova compare to burning hands, or the second level one to Flaming Sphere? Pretty well, I'd argue. Possibly better. If there is some damage-scale-dropoff at the ceiling spell levels... so be it. The re-purposing of low level, borderline obsolete spells might be value enough.
3. The ability *should* do less damage, with less variance, because of the risks involved in using it.
4. As you indicate, it is a standard action. Unlike a cast spell, it does not require V, S, or M components or, most importantly for trying to drop a FB on yourself when swarmed, does not trigger attacks of opportunity.
5. Did I mention it doesn't trigger attacks of opportunity? Being snarky, sure, but to me, this is the core strength of the ability. Imagine Thoven surrounded by 5 kobolds. He can cast a FB on himself and wipe them out, but he has an AC of 11 and is going to have to shrug of five free attacks before he gets that chance, and then has to succeed on a concentration check based on the cumulative amount of damage suffered by those AoOs.
I agree that the non-AoO nature is a big gain. I'll run the numbers on Flaming Hands and Burning Sphere and see what I get, there. I'll run it on Fire Shield, too, but that will have a huge caveat that the damage is reactive, not AoE (plus a shielding affect against cold/fire damage, to make things more complicated). Basically, the question isn't whether it should do as much damage as a fireball (because it definitely shouldn't), but whether there is a vast enough difference in the damages to justify tweaking the nova a bit despite its advantages. -Slitherrr
Ok. For the same 5 FD/8 Sorc, but assuming +4 to caster attribute, Flaming Sphere (lvl 2 spell) is 120 damage average over a 10-round span at a range of up to 200' (2d6+5, move action, does not provoke AoO, and unresisted), vs 19 average per target from the same-level nova, but in one round, AoE, for a free action with no components, which compares favorably in the really short term, and it could conceivably do as much damage if enough enemies (6.4ish) can be crowded into that 15' radius circle (who don't resist). Burning Hands (level 1) does 7.5 avg (5d4 + 5) to 1/4 of the area of the nova, to which the nova compares very favorably (11.5 average damage to a larger area with a faster casting time). In other words, its low-level versions are very comparatively efficient, the gains of which then taper out. There aren't any other fire spells that do damage until FD5/Sorc 14 (the spell is Incendiary Cloud, though, which does a megafuckload of damage, basically an AoE version of Flaming Sphere that does twice as much damage and only allows save for half). This seems like an incentive for the FD to spam low-level spell slots for nova, and save his higher slots for empowered/maximized fireballs, which may or may not be fine, depending on how you want it to go. I'm still for making the range depend on level--given the numbers above, ranging it at, say, 5'/level sacrificed seems like it would keep the ability useful, but not as awesome for spamming, at lower levels, while slightly increasing its danger at the higher levels, making it more likely that the FD will find it worthwhile to sacrifice the slot and HP for such a cast. -Slitherrr
Well, I'd say most sorcs probably do not have a lot of metamagic feats because it takes a full round action to apply metamagic to sorc spells, and - as a casterphiliac - I find that the damage increasing feats are usually not worthwhile. An empowered fireball is like a, what, 5th level spell? Yeah, I'd rather cast cloudkill. Maximized fireball is a 6th level spell or something? I'm sure I could find something more useful with a 6th level spell slot than a 60 damage fireball that's only going to end up doing 30. -gm
For some reason, I read the metamagic feats as having one less addition than they actually had. That being said, we can compare empowered fireball vs. 5th-level nova-- 10sorc 5FD, probably a +4 in cha (possibly +5 if he really worked it) gives 5d4 + 20, averages to 32.5 damage. Empowered fireball is either (10d6 + 5) * 1.5 = 60 average, or 15d6 + 7 = 59 damage average *because I'm not sure when the empowerment works out), giving roughly double the average damage output without self-damage at range in a larger area for the same-level spell, at the cost of not being insta-cast with no components. At that level, a DC 20 defensive casting check is going to be made almost all the time (18 ranks in concentration, so a single con bonus point would be 100% success), so AoO is basically a non-issue. Nova would only win out as a last-ditch attack when bound/grappled/etc, which could conceivably be enough utility to make up for the deficit, but it's a hard question. That said, a 25' radius instead of a 20' radius adds 36 squares of potential targets, which could very easily make up in utility what fireball gains in damage. -Slitherrr
Still using a overpowered spell as benchmark, only now jacked up. I like conceptually the larger radius for more powerful spells, it fits with the idea of it being a powerful burst of raw elemental power. But, yeah, I tend to think things like Casting Spells With No AoO is a huge add in terms of power scaling with other abilities.
Oh, yeah, and if the caster dropped that empowered fireball on himself and the required reflex save (probably at -4) would probably kill him. So, not getting killed because the save plays to your strong save is also bonus. Plus the range. And, at the end of the day, it's better to have an ability get underpowered at the top end than be overpowered at the low end. I think? Maybe not. Some WoW person probably has reams of data about that, actually. -gm
I'm comparing it to what is there, and I think whether it is actually overpowered is debatable--after all, Cone of Cold (level 5) does up to 15d6 damage to a 60' cone. That's the exact same as the empowered fireball if you don't count the FD bonus (and only seven less if you do), to more than twice the area (1260 ft^2 for the fireball vs. 2830 ft^2 for the cone of cold), as a standard action rather than a full-round action, with its only disadvantage being that you don't have the ability to toss the area an ungodly distance away. Chain lightning (level 6) does up to 20d6 damage to one guy, then half that to selected AoE within a 30' radius (only up to 20 targets, but you can intentionally miss your allies, a big deal with numbers that high) at the same ridiculous range as Firebal. I think the argument that Fireball is overpowered is really a non-starter, given all the other spells that balance right along with it. The AoO bit has a bit more teeth, but like I described up there, the FD/Sorc at these levels is going to make his Concentration roll to cast defensively and thus avoid AoO (level 12 gives 15 ranks, + 4 from Combat Casting, is 100% success for level 5 spells, and that's without Con bonuses, and at a lower level than the FD/Sorc even needs to be able to cast level 5 spells) unless he's being grappled, and even then he's still got a pretty good chance. Nova DOES get a big advantage while pinned, and that is very big, and probably the biggest advantage this ability gets, period, and definitely worth sacrificing some damage to make up for it (escaping smoker tongues, anyone?).
For that last reason, I've stopped arguing for bumping up the damage for the last couple of exchanges--the numbers are there to underscore my current objective, which is solely on making radius depend on level sacrificed. My reasoning is that a static radius makes it too attractive to run around burning low-level spells every round, and never ever have a reason to burn a high-level spell, which seems like a waste of potential. It seems like, if every single other level 5 option is better except in extreme cases, and in those cases you can get 90% of the efficacy from a nova using a spell slot one or two levels lower, thus saving your Cloud Kill or Empowered Fireball for when you escape those bonds or get out of that grapple, why include it as an option? I don't know if 5'/FD level is optimal in the light of the numbers, because it really diminishes the lower-level damage capacity and only marginally increases the higher-level damage capacity, but since these things have to come in 5' increments, I don't really know any better progression, and it serves my point, which is to spread out the use of this ability among the full spectrum of its capability, rather than limiting its usefulness to a subset of itself. -Slitherrr
One thing that has just occurred to me, and that hasn't come up yet, is that the damage is heavily dependent on the caster attribute bonus, which can make things a little...crazy. The spread between +0 and +5 on the level 5 nova is 30 points, non-variable. A caster with a +5 from ability bonus, buffed with, say, Eagle's Splendor, gives an ability bonus of +7 and an average damage of 59.5 for a level 5 nova, a full 12 points higher, completely non-variable. It's something to think about. -Slitherrr
Of course, this could be self-balancing, with the self-damage aspect, so that might be a non-issue. -Slitherrr
I actually considered a couple of other damage systems for nova. 2d4/level and 2d6/level might be better and simpler options, especially when coupled with scaled AoE, which I really like both conceptually and mechanically. -gm

I updated the article to reflect something of a consensus on the way to do fire resist (FR 5x Disciple Level), although I'm still not sure the best way to handle cold damage. In Elementals, Immunity to fire yields +50% cold damage, so anything that big seems like it would be bad news. One suggestion from [[slitherrr] was +1 to each cold damage die rolled, which is significant at high levels without being absurd. That would make sense to take effect on the 5th level. If something was needed in the interim, +1 per 2 dice could be done at level 3 or something.

I moved caster level advancement from levels 1,3,5 to levels 2,4 to provide a bit of room to do more fun stuff.

I also removed Minor Elemental Swarm -- the idea is neat, but it seems impractical and like it would be rarely used for it to be a 5th level ability.

Some ideas so far for filling in other abilities (etc):

  • Metamagic feats don't cost anything for fire-based spells
  • Possibly the option between two different styles of new metamagic feat:
    • Fire spells all get a knockback/knockdown, or
    • Fire spells apply a damage over time effect
  • A caster-centered explosion (presumably to deal with being swarmed)
  • The ability to learn druid/cleric/etc fire spells at some sort of level penalty

I'm open to suggestions for others, it seems (at least to me) like there's a bit of room to push more cool stuff in without making the class over-powered.

-TooMuchPete 17:07, 23 June 2010 (EDT)

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