Difference between revisions of "Talk:Germain's Character Sheet"

Revision as of 10:36, 24 August 2011

Re: Ring of E-Mail

• Did you throw this away or is it just stashed? -gm
  • Just stashed--no intention to throw it away, although I might tell people I did. --Msallen
• Also, Ed mentioned plans to fake his death, FWiW.... -gm
  • If he succeeds, I'll put it on again --Msallen
• Also, Also, you might not want to discard it until after Boss Fight. It's not fucking around. "Very Dangerous." I don't suggest finding and reading that definition in the ECL guide. -gm
  • Done! --Msallen

Yeah, between his professional build, and the Dragonman and Bard pick up, Germain needs to pick up a few Knowledge (Law) skills so he can become Wydmoor's preeminent lawyer. It's the gateway to politics, and it always has been! But, yeah, Oratory is a legitimate skill - instead of singing or playing an instrument to inspire courage, you go all Saint Crispin's Day. I actually think it works amazingly well with the class and the slightly more martial tone of it in this campaign. -gm

Actually, I've thought about that before, and the only reason I didn't take it is that as per the rules, knowledge (local) includes laws and such for the region. That said, I'm all for another skill if you want to separate them, although I think we might should consider that a knowledge (law) would get synch bonuses from knowledge (local) and knowledge (religion), and possibly more. Alternatively, a profession skill might be appropriate for encompassing what you are explaining. --Msallen

Nah, I'm down with Law. It might take some sort of examination and certification process. Probably a roll. -gm

Which, profession or knowledge? Its not clear at all --Msallen

If we go with the Tome profession tweak, making 1 rank in Profession(Law) perhaps a "Law Student", and 2 ranks a "Lawyer" would probably be more than adequate, and could have the effect of allowing knowledge skills to be used for law-related questions (perhaps with a bonus at "Lawyer"), in lieu of being able to simply plop down some rolls and make money as a lawyer. I don't think Law will have enough use to justify spending points in as a sub-category of knowledge. -Slitherrr

I'd like to flesh out the concept of Bog Iron a bit for the Wydmoor region. I was sort of enamoured with it when I was doing my Wydmoor Swamp research because, with its natural rust-resistence, it is almost as if it has magical properties even in the real world. One idea is just to make it equivalent to cold iron, which is the reason I bring it up here. Can we retcon that sword from the orc battle to be a Wydmoor-made, bog iron weapon? --Msallen

A funny note, brought up by the Tome, is that D&D cold iron is silly--the reason cold iron is good against fey is because, at the time these things were made up, cold iron represented the high technology of the time. Since "regular" steel, the material of "regular" weapons, takes more technological prowess than cold iron, it doesn't make sense that cold iron is super-effective against fey and regular iron isn't. Anyway, that doesn't change anything in the Mainland, it was just a hilarious observation. -Slitherrr

Yeah, cold iron is pretty funny when you read the history of the term. --Msallen

FWiW, the primary use is of iron IMO is not in taking out fey, but in taking out demons and devils. Also, sure, I'm ok with making Bog Iron count as Cold Iron, and having the sword be Bog Iron for flavor. -gm

The fey thing is really primarily a historical folklore reference from the real world. From wikipedia: "Cold iron" is sometimes asserted to repel, contain, or harm ghosts, fairies, witches, and/or other malevolent supernatural creatures. I didn't realize it was useful against Demons too until I checked out the monster records--the cold iron section in special materials only mentions fey. Also, it looks like cold iron is only in the DR of Demons, but Devils don't have any special vulnerabilities to cold iron. --Msallen

*blink* Who are you talking to like I don't know that? I just meant players fight waaaaaay more demons than fey. -gm

Skills

Do synergy bonuses stack? I was under the impression that they didn't. -Slitherrr 12:09, 11 November 2009 (EST)

A little research suggests they don't as of 3.5. Booo. -Slitherrr 12:10, 11 November 2009 (EST)

Actually, scratch that. It looks like it went from being a "synergy bonus" to an "unnamed bonus", so despite the vague wording of the synergy bit in the skill, it evidently does, indeed, stack. -Slitherrr 12:13, 11 November 2009 (EST)

I am pretty sure they stack based only on the few character optimization posts I've read. Those nerds would have seen a rules violation from a mile away. That said, I think they shouldn't. Syn bonuses are definitely unbalanced and heavily abusable in 3.5, especially around diplomacy. I wouldn't abuse them like I have except that I self-identify as a munchkin and I feel no obligation to violate my lifestyle. -Msallen 13:03, 11 November 2009 (EST)

Diplomacy is impossible to unbalance because you can't talk your way out of a knife to the back. -gm

Only true if you completely disregard the "influence NPC reactions" table (which any good game master will do anyways). A real diplomancer would have at least +22 or so at my level, which would allow me to avoid all kinds of combat through talkin'. Also: [1]. -Msallen 14:03, 12 November 2009 (EST)

I *wish* I had that diplomancer in my group. He'd be dead in two sessions. I do not miss players like this, though I'm somewhat eager to encounter one again one day. Good luck out rules lawyering me in 3.5 : the Diplomancer concept has a fatal flaw that the player seems to willfully ignore. Namely : "Changing others’ attitudes with Diplomacy generally takes at least 1 full minute (10 consecutive full-round actions). In some situations, this time requirement may greatly increase." I suppose the counter would be to take a rushed one at -10, which I would patently disallow, because you can't do any meaningful diplomacy in six seconds. Since that would lead to some whinging and arguing, I'd give the "ok" and then move on to my next trick. After all, that's hardly the only fuckin' I could give. ". . . to influence the attitude of a nonplayer character, or wild empathy checks made to influence the attitude of </b>an animal or magical beast."

Notice that article? It's consistantly singular. That is, even with a hurried diplomacy action every round, you'd still only get to turn ONE NPCs reaction per round, not that of a whole group. And, the instant Mr Diplomancer convinces that one guy to oppose his fellows, I'll give you one guess as to who the rest of the opposition will concentrate fire on. -gm

Yeah, and what Jones is saying is basically what is flavoring the Professional discussion from my point of view, and what makes him so tough to balance. His power outside of combat stems a lot from talky-talky, and that power is so easy to cancel out that it's really hard to judge exactly how powerful it makes him. -Slitherrr

Whats crappy about the sync bonuses is how quickly they push other characters out of the dipl game. In general, a player that wants to be top-notch at a specific skill for player reasons can be with minimal investment. However, if you don't go ape-shit with diplomacy getting all the support skills, its really hard to have much impact compared to a diplomancer type. --Msallen 13:16, 14 January 2010 (EST)

You know, Germain really doesn't spend much time lying anymore--now that hes increasingly important, he just doesn't have to front as much. I'm considering focusing on Dipl, SM, and GI, and putting bluff/intimidate on the back burner. At +10, they are pretty strong, and I'm sure I'll be able to buy them up a little more (and benefit from the Dragoman feature). I might just leave him at "capable" liar and buy up some more knowledge skills. --Msallen

Did you know in ancient times, big pilgrim cities would often be flush with "travelers guides" of various degrees of quality? You could have picked a few up, at nominal gold cost, to justify enough for a couple points in dadtim and/or alexandria's city. -gm

Yeah, I was considering it. Points are tight trying to qualify for Dragoman at 7 and bring my wheelhouse skills up to max. I already dropped bluff from my wheelhouse to be able to get some extra points in knowledge skills :| I'll see what I can do. --Msallen

My usual playbook fort that situation is to sacrifice my max skill to get the glass I'm looking for, then double down the next level to get back up to max.

I did that last level :| I doubled down on SM to bring it to max since I want it to be my main bag, and then I only put a point in my other max skills. I do think another knowledge: local is a good idea. --Msallen

Skill-wise, my next step with Germain is to start working his knowledge skills up to 5 ranks. At that point, they grant their synergy bonuses and give me +9 on my rolls. Since this is a guaranteed aid-another success, its sort of a cool feature. It'll mean Germ can get some rarer info (20 avg), and can always contribute to the work of a real expert. --Msallen

Only 16 ranks to go! -Slitherrr

Another level, another drama. Dragoman lets me pick up Skill Mastery (+2 and take-10 under stress) on Sense Motive, which I would like to be one of Germ's major strengths as an investigator/statesman. However, Bard is just a shitload more utility. It's probably going to have to be bard :| --Msallen

Well, as long as the party stays x+1 on you, at least there's the bonus XP. -gm

I don't really picture Germain plucking a lute. -Slitherrr

Perform (Oration). I'm not sure what sort of details I need to work out on this with Jones, but we've been talking about public speech as a bard focus for Germain. The ability to give a powerful speech makes sense for a lot of bard abilities (although maybe countersong is a little hinky) --Msallen

Yeah, between his professional build, and the Dragonman and Bard pick up, Germain needs to pick up a few Knowledge (Law) skills so he can become Wydmoor's preeminent lawyer. It's the gateway to politics, and it always has been! But, yeah, Oratory is a legitimate skill - instead of singing or playing an instrument to inspire courage, you go all Saint Crispin's Day. I actually think it works amazingly well with the class and the slightly more martial tone of it in this campaign. -gm

Actually, I've thought about that before, and the only reason I didn't take it is that as per the rules, knowledge (local) includes laws and such for the region. That said, I'm all for another skill if you want to separate them, although I think we might should consider that a knowledge (law) would get synch bonuses from knowledge (local) and knowledge (religion), and possibly more. Alternatively, a profession skill might be appropriate for encompassing what you are explaining. --Msallen

Nah, I'm down with Law. It might take some sort of examination and certification process. Probably a roll. -gm

Which, profession or knowledge? Its not clear at all --Msallen

If we go with the Tome profession tweak, making 1 rank in Profession(Law) perhaps a "Law Student", and 2 ranks a "Lawyer" would probably be more than adequate, and could have the effect of allowing knowledge skills to be used for law-related questions (perhaps with a bonus at "Lawyer"), in lieu of being able to simply plop down some rolls and make money as a lawyer. I don't think Law will have enough use to justify spending points in as a sub-category of knowledge. -Slitherrr

Leveling and Respec

Ranger! Crazy talk! -Slitherrr

FAVORED ENEMY: HUMAN! --192.147.58.6 13:11, 14 January 2010 (EST)

Potential changes from Fighter -> Professional respec:

• HP -2
• Fort Save -1
• Remove: Evasion
• Add: Insightful Defense
• Skills: 6 pts (can't raise any skills past level 3 max)
  • 1 listen
  • 1 spot
  • 2 search
  • 2 intimidate

No changes occur to:

• Feats: lost fighter bonus, gained prof bonus--since I took skill feats with 2 human starting feats and
• BaB: Prof level 2->3 gets a +1 BaB

Done! In the process I realized I took 8 skills instead of 9 for my newest ranger level! --Msallen

I guess there is a part of me that is looking at the Field Marshall and seriously considering it. --Msallen

Then go capture one. Kib has a reason to be able to access Sentinal and Field Marshall classes. I'm not sure Germain does. -gm

The 1-level splashes in all these classes with strong saves have really rocketed them to crazy levels. You're at 26 total without the ring, and without spending any feats on saves, and without even having great Con or Dex! I pity the fool who tries to mind control your ass. -Slitherrr

No shit, although the only time anyone tried to mind control me they succeeded. Once I get my sense motive up to ridiculous levels, I'll be moving on to saves with Will as the top priority, though, so I'll be smooth sailing again! --Msallen

Silly boy, why would anyone mind control the least effective member of the party? No, you kill the talker first because he brings you no upside, and then mind control the guy with the monster scythe. Maybe reverse the order of those two, in a perfect world. -gm

Talker has proven pretty hard to kill--Germain can't fight, but hes routinely high AC with good HP and saves. But yeah, too bad there are no scribable or wandable bard spells. --Msallen

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/breakEnchantment.htm

In general, the goal with Germain taking Bard was to expand his abilities as a utility knife in combat. With the right wands and scrolls he can become an off-healer, a spellbreaker, crowd control, and other utility effects. He can survive in battle without too much help, and its not like his actions are better spent on attacks. --Msallen

I think the ideal for Kib would be for him to find a cudgel with a "Break Enchantment" effect. Also, hilarious. One great thing about the petomancer, though, is that while they might not singly be amazing in combat, they're pretty good put together, AND that's twice as many people to have to mind control!

Don't forget, if you start cranking Bard levels, that you're going to also have to keep your Ranger levels up to not get XP penalties. -Slitherrr

Yeah, I looked into that. I don't think I will go past bard 2 anyways, maybe not even that far. There isn't a lot of incentive to do more than splash bard if you aren't going all bard. The only reason to go to 2 is level 1 spells. --Msallen

Gear

An unintended consequence of our changes is that my goofy earring, which gives skill bonuses or eagle's splendor, gets a little cooler at mid levels --Msallen

Hm?

Also, what'd you think of that new feat?

Er. Because the clicky will give me an AC bonus starting at level 6. I like the feat in concept, although I'm not sure I'm capable of evaluating how useful it is. It might be too situational, but I don't have a good grip on that sort of thing. --Msallen

Well, I didn't actually create the feat, I lifted it. I imagine the goal is to give an Aid Another to someone ELSE who is also going to AoO? Also, don't forget, your Eagle's Splendor only lasts 3 minutes and shuts off your +1 for 24 hours. ;)

Um. Eagle's Splendor is Charisma, not Intelligence. It'll be a + to Will Saves if you take the feat, but that's it.-Slitherrr

Yeah, sorry, I assume what was meant was Fox's Cunning. LE's Charisma Cloak clickies to Eagle's Splendor. -gm

Ah, I think Jones meant for it to be Fox's Cunning (int bonus) based on how he explained it: get +1 on int skills all the time, or get +2 for a short period. That said, if I was wrong, sweet! I'll take a charisma buff any day! --Msallen

Does the arrow-magnet quality of germ's buckler still work if he is wielding it with a 2-handed weapon like a bow? Ie. if I am denied the shield's AC bonus, am I also denied the ability? --Msallen

Excellent question. No. If it is stowed in your backpack, it does not magnet. You actually CAN use a buckler with a two handed weapon, though. -gm

I guess this could go 2 ways, but I'm happy with this way since it serves my purpose (like germain gives a shit about another -1 to hit). On first reading of the buckler rules, it looked to me like you lost the AC bonus because you are using your off hand to wield the 2-handed weapon. --Msallen

This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a -1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don’t get the buckler’s AC bonus for the rest of the round.

Oh shit, we are both total retards. --Msallen

You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it.

Leadership

Leadership at Professional 5? You get it for free in one more level! -66.207.91.56

Yeah, I know its kind of stupid. Might still change my mind, but here was my reasoning:

* It will be a while before I take Prof 6 since there are some skill boosters from Dragoman that I am more interested in

* I'm most interested in leading an organization, so Improved Leadership is actually pretty cool since it boosts my henchmen

* I like the RP element of stacking feats around socials skills and leadership, even if it isn't optimal.

I still don't get why you'd grab leadership at lvl 5. Cohort always maxes out at Level-2. I always thought the +2 Improved Leadership was kind of a booby prize. -gm

Yeah, I don't know if I will take it in the end. It depends on a lot of things:

• Have I had an in-game justification to get a second knowledge (local) skill up to 6. If I can, I'll be picking up Dragoman at level 7. I'll probably take it to level 2--the +3 bonus to all charisma skills is hot for me, and I'd really like to get +2 and take-10 with Sense Motive. That'll mean I won't get leadership until level 9 if I don't take it as a feat.
• Do I have an in-game justification to take leadership at 6? I might not even feel like the Germ has the contacts or resources to take leadership, and I'd like to have an NPC in mind for cohort potential. In all honesty, I'm probably also more interested in the followers than the cohorts, since I'm not even sure I'll take a combat-based cohort. For followers, the +2 bonus does have a noticeable effect.
• What do you have in mind for the leadership feat? Its a weird feat with very little structure that is highly dependent on the GM, campaign, and player. So I'll just be talking to you a lot about it as I get closer to 6. If it it has a strong RP component that'll cause NPC organizations to put me in charge of lots of people, then I'll take it earlier. If I have to have my own base of operations, funding, and political capital to make full use of it, then I'll take it later. If it means I'm more likely to start building more permanent relationships with a higher level of loyalty with the NPCs I interact with, I'll take it earlier. Etc. etc.

Hence the question mark. Its still pretty unresolved whether and how I'm going to use the feat. --Msallen

Well, you've got, what, 2 more levels before it's an issue? I'll backburner it for now - 2010/1401 is going to be a VERY chaotic year for Wydmoor, so where Germ goes and how he develops is up in the air: all possibilities are on the table. That's all I can say about that right now. If you wanted a knowledge local, you could, perhaps, pick a city or region where one of the OTHER characters has some Knowledge Local skill points and learn from them. I mean, I'm a big fan of assuming the players are doing stuff like conversating and such during all the Walking Time characters do, so I've never bought fully into the "well, I didn't do anything in game to justify the expense." With months of skipped over downtime, there's plenty of time to practice skills and wotnot on the road. (Though, for something like your ranger level, the RP component becomes a lot more important.) -gm

Aight. I guess I was under the impression that you had to spend some time in an area to build up knowledge (local), but chatting, libraries, and reading newspapers is enough? I'll probably aim to build up my knowledge of ubrekt city, since I already have some points in it and its probably easy to get news/info about since its such an important city. Or I'll see what the other party members have. Still doesn't really resolve this issue since it'll just cause my to postpone prof 6 for 3 levels for sure. --Msallen

Languages

Looks like I am short a language, since ubrekti and regional language are both granted to starting characters. What makes sense from a game perspective. Germ has been around Fresia/Flannery and Ubrekti City most of his life, so it seems like I could easily make a case for any of them? --Msallen

I thought you already had Flannary and Fresia? The regional language for Ubrekt is actually Hakni. -gm

Wouldn't I start with Ubrekti and Fresia? I was under the impression from the contentious language talk page that you start with common + regional + int bonus? --Msallen

Well, either Ubrekti and Fresia, or Ubrekti and Flanneri. What I think that Matt is referring to, though, is that if you spent a lot of time in Ubrekti City, it'd make sense if you knew Hakni, since that's the actual regional language, there. -Slitherrr

Also, for being the more worldly and less beefy incarnation of Kib, you sure haven't spent many points in Speak Language. -Slitherrr

The only other language we've had to deal with was Lizardmanlander! When will I ever use that again? Probably pick up Odessan soon since you people are invading my new town. --Msallen

Yeah, I have no idea why Odessan is so widely spoken in the MFC group, since most of them are Gildenhomers. WEIRD. -Slitherrr

Is it really that widely spoken? I see Thed being the only one having it that doesn't have a super obvious reason to... -Feantari

You're right, for some reason I was remembering Thoven as having it. -Slitherrr

Edrell-Mail

(Rcvd at some point during the combats of last game you were too much of a girl to witness, both in and out of game.)

CITY BESIEGED. YOUR RETURN UNLIKELY FOR AWHILE. NEWS IS OUT ABOUT MAYOR. WAR ROOM IN CHAOS. HAVE MAYOR'S RING? URGENT. (Rc'vd 1 Pd/Rnwl)

Woo! Also, what's that about line-breaks in your edit summary? -slith