Talk:Germain's Character Sheet
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Moving Germain to pathfinder is going to be a real bitch since they refactored the skills quite a bit. Although it's going to benefit him a lot because of the skill merges (diplomacy/gather info and spot/listen/search) and the +3 for in-class, trained skills are going to free up around 30 skill points. The lack of synergies is going to hurt some, but it's also going to free up some points since I don't have to hit 5 ranks on aid/support skills where I'm only aiming for +9 to auto-aid (ie. all my knowledges). Obsessions about twinking aside, I'm super happy to see skill synergies go--I hate that shit. I reckon I can max out my tier 2 skills (bluff, intimidate, perception), flush out my support knowledges (arcana, religion, psionics, nature, etc) to +9s, and start to branch out into some new skills (disguise, stealth, dungeoneering). Do you want me to do the migration? I've got 6 days off starting tomorrow. --Msallen
- Quick calculation says that if I bring my support knowledges to +9 and max out bluff, intimidate, and perception, I'll be left with ~24 skill points to spend. --Msallen
- Maybe so. Though, remember there's not 4x skill points for first level in pathfinder. In any event, the more streamlined skills will certainly work to Germain's advantage. He'll be the biggest PitA because of his reliance on Professional class, which PF's new skills someone remove the need for. For example, I remade Quin as a straight fighter and he ended up a better skill monkey AND a better fighter in the end. I doubt we'd want to just shift Germain over to rogue or something, so dunno what we want to do there. -gm
- What resources are you using for the conversion? Not because I'm up for trying to convince Gnob's Folly to switch, though, although it might be fun to make a conversion for Kib just for the hell of it. -Slitherrr
- Oooo. Yeah, since there is no 4x, it'll just be flushing out the +9s and moderate improvements to the 2nd tier skills, which makes a lot more sense. I think if we did a straight swap, Germain would probably just have to end up a bard or maybe a rogue/figther or rogue/ranger or something. Given how much they've boosted the base classes, we'd definitely need to put some work on professional, although maybe we could just tack on something like grit feats geared towards their style. --Msallen
- Yeah, honestly I think that it's probably not worth doing a professional revamp at all, since the Pathfinder skill system really (IMHO) addresses the mechanics problem Professional was meant to address. I mean, since you're the most invested in it I'm certainly willing to RFC a Pathfinder variant, but I'm not going to do the work. :D -gm
- It is interesting, I was looking at it and it most likely looks like PF fighter (tactician archetype) fits Kib's ORIGINAL intent much better than the current prof/fighter/field marshall thing does, although it doesn't necessarily fit what he has become over the course (very skill-heavy beefy type with well-rounded defenses), since his total skill points will likely drop below the point at which skill consolidation will make up for it. I might do this conversion just for the exercise and the sheer curiosity. -Slitherrr
- You'd be surprised. It's possible, since I suppose you'd be using a lot of your Favored Class level bonuses for skills or CMD defense instead of HP, so maybe. The Toughness feat is actually not sucky anymore (+HD instead of +3), and everyone is going to end up with more feats. Tactically, there are some wins and losses for Kib in the switch from complex maneuver rules to the CMB/CMD but overall better, especially from a pacing PoV. Also dropping Professional gains some more hit point from the HD upgrade. I think Field Marshal could probably be ported over to PF directly, but if someone WAS going to remake them for PF, it might be interesting to make them more modular and bring over the class trait menu mechanic from things like rogue/gunslinger/etc. Let them build more crafted AoEs. I think Dragoman is another class ripe for this sort of treatment. -gm
- Ok, did the calculations. The skills actually come up interestingly--assuming I level Fighter only (tactician archetype) all my best skills go down by some amount (thanks to loss in synergy bonuses), which can be made up for somewhat by taking the skill focus racial trait (which will be like getting two "free" skill focus feats, with another coming at level 16). All but my top four skills remain unchanged, or go up by a point. I gain three stat points (current total comes to 19, so I can gain a point in something 12 or less, which probably means charisma, and human gets a +2, which would go into either str, int or cha, most likely). This would allow me to increase my non-focused skills, but wouldn't have much effect on my top skills unless I chose Charisma for the +2. My AC goes down by three (no insightful defense). I get the same number of feats, but some of the Pathfinder stuff require more feats to get the same effect I have (I have to go to Greater trip in order to get the same effect as Imp Trip, for example). My saves TANK--without the improved Professional progression, I go from being pretty great save-wise to essentially only having decent fort, with no real way to make it up in feats unless I give up some combat ability. My BaB goes up two points, though, and I can get +1 attack/damage with a class of weapons. The tactician main ability is pretty cool--apply a teamwork feat that I choose to someone else within 30 feet some number of times per day that depends on Int. I lose some other Int-based synergy (not really as much as I originally thought though)
- In sum, Kib gets a significant numerical boost in combat fundamentals (more hp and more damage), but becomes less generally defensive (shittier saves, except fort, base AC on BP goes up by one, but loss of insightful defense removes the gains and tactician isn't proficient in heavy armor), and less interesting tactically (fewer feats available for combat options like trip, blind fight, etc, although with the gain of a single teamwork feat that can admittedly be pretty powerful, if situational), and becomes worse at the not-strictly-combat aspects of his job (diplomacy goes down, perception goes down, etc). That's assuming all the DCs in Pathfinder are roughly on the same scale as in 3.5e, which I don't really know enough about. If he goes the Field Marshall route, still (which he can actually get earlier thanks to the better BaB of the fighter), his saves go up a bit (reflex remains horrible), he loses a feat, a weapon training level, and an armor training level, but gets back insightful defense (via keen awareness), and can now apply his commanding presence to saves/init/AC in addition to skills. He also misses out on ever getting Armor/Weapon mastery, and some favored class bonuses. It's an interesting trade-off. -Slitherrr
- You're really going to *lose* feats? That's hard to believe. PF has a different feat progression, remember: 1,3,5,7,9... Even with that you come out with less feats? Honestly, I'm surprised that the conversion hits Kib so hard in the core of his build. Of course, Pathfinder opens up the Cavalier class for Kib, which is very Kibby and turns Tenny into a legit Animal Companion. Also: How badly do perception and diplomacy take a hit? There are no "cross-class skills" in Pathfinder, so you ought to still be able to buy up perception to a decent level even without the +3 Class Skill Bonus. -gm
- Tactician: 4 bonus fighter/teamwork/skill focus feats (One less than it would be because extra skill points replaces it for level 1), 5 standard feats, 1 bonus human feat (which can be turned into 2 skill focus feats with one of the human bonus variants), and 1 tactician bonus feat that is teamwork-only, and can be used with the Tactician special ability. That's 11. 3.5e Kib has 4 standard feats, 1 human bonus feat, 4 professional bonus feats (including Leadership), and 2 fighter bonus feats. That comes out to eleven, but without the restrictions on the Pathfinder, AND with a loss in the conversion from Improved Trip (3.5e) -> Improved Trip + Greater Trip (PF). Perception goes down because he loses the +3 for them being class skills, and can only buy them to 9 (which comes to 8 with stat). He can make up for it with Skill Focus, but he has to then use a feat slot to do that. Diplomacy goes down from 19 to 14 (no synergy bonuses), a significant hit, but a skill focus feat actually bumps him past that. I glanced over Cavalier, but didn't calculate it with him. It's an interesting option, definitely throws him solidly into the "Mounted Combat" camp that he's been fiddling with for a while, removing a lot of his current flexibility in the process (replacing it with different flexibility through the Tactician ability). The Strategist archetype is specially interesting. It all is very different from 3.5e Kib, a completely different interpretation of similar spirit (as a side note, the Order stuff would introduce a lot of complicated stuff that would be fun to sort out through handwave/retcon). Of course, since converting all of the MeFight team would take way more work than they are probably willing to put in, this is all academic (but fun :)) -Slitherrr
- I think diplomacy will always go down after this conversion because they were so subject to synergy exploitation in 3.5. I haven't looked that close at Kib, but I'm sure Germain's dipl skill should go down quite a bit (~8 points?) post-migration. --Msallen
- Here are the notes I scratched while I was doing this. These numbers assume I take a skill focus in Perception and one in Diplomacy. It also assumes I put my additional (human stat bonus) +2 in INT rather than, say, CHA or STR, which will decrease all those lower skills a tad (fewer ranks, lower bonuses for knowledge skills), but bump up his focused skills slightly. Without skill focus, diplo becomes 14 and Perception becomes 8, and I get back something like combat reflexes or hindering opportunist:
- I think diplomacy will always go down after this conversion because they were so subject to synergy exploitation in 3.5. I haven't looked that close at Kib, but I'm sure Germain's dipl skill should go down quite a bit (~8 points?) post-migration. --Msallen
- Tactician: 4 bonus fighter/teamwork/skill focus feats (One less than it would be because extra skill points replaces it for level 1), 5 standard feats, 1 bonus human feat (which can be turned into 2 skill focus feats with one of the human bonus variants), and 1 tactician bonus feat that is teamwork-only, and can be used with the Tactician special ability. That's 11. 3.5e Kib has 4 standard feats, 1 human bonus feat, 4 professional bonus feats (including Leadership), and 2 fighter bonus feats. That comes out to eleven, but without the restrictions on the Pathfinder, AND with a loss in the conversion from Improved Trip (3.5e) -> Improved Trip + Greater Trip (PF). Perception goes down because he loses the +3 for them being class skills, and can only buy them to 9 (which comes to 8 with stat). He can make up for it with Skill Focus, but he has to then use a feat slot to do that. Diplomacy goes down from 19 to 14 (no synergy bonuses), a significant hit, but a skill focus feat actually bumps him past that. I glanced over Cavalier, but didn't calculate it with him. It's an interesting option, definitely throws him solidly into the "Mounted Combat" camp that he's been fiddling with for a while, removing a lot of his current flexibility in the process (replacing it with different flexibility through the Tactician ability). The Strategist archetype is specially interesting. It all is very different from 3.5e Kib, a completely different interpretation of similar spirit (as a side note, the Order stuff would introduce a lot of complicated stuff that would be fun to sort out through handwave/retcon). Of course, since converting all of the MeFight team would take way more work than they are probably willing to put in, this is all academic (but fun :)) -Slitherrr
- You're really going to *lose* feats? That's hard to believe. PF has a different feat progression, remember: 1,3,5,7,9... Even with that you come out with less feats? Honestly, I'm surprised that the conversion hits Kib so hard in the core of his build. Of course, Pathfinder opens up the Cavalier class for Kib, which is very Kibby and turns Tenny into a legit Animal Companion. Also: How badly do perception and diplomacy take a hit? There are no "cross-class skills" in Pathfinder, so you ought to still be able to buy up perception to a decent level even without the +3 Class Skill Bonus. -gm
- You'd be surprised. It's possible, since I suppose you'd be using a lot of your Favored Class level bonuses for skills or CMD defense instead of HP, so maybe. The Toughness feat is actually not sucky anymore (+HD instead of +3), and everyone is going to end up with more feats. Tactically, there are some wins and losses for Kib in the switch from complex maneuver rules to the CMB/CMD but overall better, especially from a pacing PoV. Also dropping Professional gains some more hit point from the HD upgrade. I think Field Marshal could probably be ported over to PF directly, but if someone WAS going to remake them for PF, it might be interesting to make them more modular and bring over the class trait menu mechanic from things like rogue/gunslinger/etc. Let them build more crafted AoEs. I think Dragoman is another class ripe for this sort of treatment. -gm
- It is interesting, I was looking at it and it most likely looks like PF fighter (tactician archetype) fits Kib's ORIGINAL intent much better than the current prof/fighter/field marshall thing does, although it doesn't necessarily fit what he has become over the course (very skill-heavy beefy type with well-rounded defenses), since his total skill points will likely drop below the point at which skill consolidation will make up for it. I might do this conversion just for the exercise and the sheer curiosity. -Slitherrr
- Yeah, honestly I think that it's probably not worth doing a professional revamp at all, since the Pathfinder skill system really (IMHO) addresses the mechanics problem Professional was meant to address. I mean, since you're the most invested in it I'm certainly willing to RFC a Pathfinder variant, but I'm not going to do the work. :D -gm
- Oooo. Yeah, since there is no 4x, it'll just be flushing out the +9s and moderate improvements to the 2nd tier skills, which makes a lot more sense. I think if we did a straight swap, Germain would probably just have to end up a bard or maybe a rogue/figther or rogue/ranger or something. Given how much they've boosted the base classes, we'd definitely need to put some work on professional, although maybe we could just tack on something like grit feats geared towards their style. --Msallen
- What resources are you using for the conversion? Not because I'm up for trying to convince Gnob's Folly to switch, though, although it might be fun to make a conversion for Kib just for the hell of it. -Slitherrr
- Maybe so. Though, remember there's not 4x skill points for first level in pathfinder. In any event, the more streamlined skills will certainly work to Germain's advantage. He'll be the biggest PitA because of his reliance on Professional class, which PF's new skills someone remove the need for. For example, I remade Quin as a straight fighter and he ended up a better skill monkey AND a better fighter in the end. I doubt we'd want to just shift Germain over to rogue or something, so dunno what we want to do there. -gm
Diplomacy 19 to 20-- 9 ranks + 3 (c) + 2 (cha) + 6 (sf >= 10 ranks) Intimidate 14 to 14-- 9 ranks + 3 (c) + 2 (cha) Sense Motive 13 to 11-- 9 ranks + 3 (c) - 1 (wis) Listen/Spot -> Perception, 11 to 11-- 9 ranks - 1 (wis) + 3 (sf < 10 ranks) Ride 12 to 10-- 5 ranks + 3 (c) + 2 (cha)
- Every skill below this goes up slightly, or stays the same, thanks to better INT for the knowledge skills, and class-skill bonus on some skills with very few ranks. -Slitherrr
Putting this back in after edit kill: Slitherrr 15:58, 24 January 2013 (EST)
- The PF linguistics rules are so attractive to Kib, haha. An actual reason to train the skill! -Slitherrr
PS. I moved to a house, got a new laptop, and better internet, so if the silverwalkers ever ride again, I'm in. --Msallen
- That's a big if, but I'm glad to hear it. You might be the one that has to get them back on track / convince them to give a damn about Wydmoor. heh. -gm
- I'd like to get SW back on track, though. Need to see how many days have past and let Germain do some Time Unit spending. -gm
Is this still a relevant leadership penalty? "-1 moves around" --Msallen
- It will fall off once you take up your position in the War Room and become a fixture, yes. -gm
- Even if I tell you this + level will bump me from 40 followers (max level 4) to 61 followers (max level 5)? It's probably appropriate given the situation, but that's the full implication of this decision. --Msallen
- I'm fine with this. It'll take a week or two of game time for the penalty to fall off, but once you're established as a fixture in the city, not only will that penalty drop, but you'll be eligible for the full "has a stronghold" bonus. You're build to be a leader of men, and I think the situation and stats all warrant that. Besides, for a bunch of level 12s, the difference between 40 and 60 first through third level nobodies is effective none. -gm
- Yeah, makes sense. It's really just about presence--they aren't useful for much else. A week of game time is, what, 6 months of real time? I won't update my sheet or the geese page just yet ;) --Msallen
- OTOH, you're going to use your extravagance and generosity bonus now that everyone is pro bono. I don't think you have the cash to make it ran on scores of followers. -gm
- That's "lose," by the way. There is no way you have the finances to maintain that generosity bonus for that huge of a coterie with the current cash flow problems, unless you start hocking the Magi Tower. Or, continue hocking it, on the off chance Egg has already begun that. -gm
- OTOH, you're going to use your extravagance and generosity bonus now that everyone is pro bono. I don't think you have the cash to make it ran on scores of followers. -gm
- Yeah, makes sense. It's really just about presence--they aren't useful for much else. A week of game time is, what, 6 months of real time? I won't update my sheet or the geese page just yet ;) --Msallen
- I'm fine with this. It'll take a week or two of game time for the penalty to fall off, but once you're established as a fixture in the city, not only will that penalty drop, but you'll be eligible for the full "has a stronghold" bonus. You're build to be a leader of men, and I think the situation and stats all warrant that. Besides, for a bunch of level 12s, the difference between 40 and 60 first through third level nobodies is effective none. -gm
- Even if I tell you this + level will bump me from 40 followers (max level 4) to 61 followers (max level 5)? It's probably appropriate given the situation, but that's the full implication of this decision. --Msallen
Also, knowledge (psionics) is ok? --Msallen
- Sure.
If I make friends with Eddy's sister, can I get a level of Psion? Daddy like. --Msallen
- Heh, no. The sister you just killed is a Psionic Warrior. (As close to "monk" as the Mainland can get) You need to find someone with either the feat that lets you redo your previous level, or have a Psychic surgeon hook you up with a Wild Talent or access to the psionic class. A wild talent would be just as good as Psion if you're going for a psionic feat: all it requires is a PSP pool. -gm
Re: Ring of E-Mail
- Did you throw this away or is it just stashed? -gm
- Just stashed--no intention to throw it away, although I might tell people I did. --Msallen
- Also, Ed mentioned plans to fake his death, FWiW.... -gm
- If he succeeds, I'll put it on again --Msallen
- Also, Also, you might not want to discard it until after Boss Fight. It's not fucking around. "Very Dangerous." I don't suggest finding and reading that definition in the ECL guide. -gm
- Done! --Msallen
- Is it widely known (outside of the Silverwalkers) that this was a gift from Edrell, and that we use it for communicating. I assumed it was. Also, I may gift this to the sister if she has no other way to communicate with Eddy. --Msallen
Yeah, between his professional build, and the Dragonman and Bard pick up, Germain needs to pick up a few Knowledge (Law) skills so he can become Wydmoor's preeminent lawyer. It's the gateway to politics, and it always has been! But, yeah, Oratory is a legitimate skill - instead of singing or playing an instrument to inspire courage, you go all Saint Crispin's Day. I actually think it works amazingly well with the class and the slightly more martial tone of it in this campaign. -gm
- Actually, I've thought about that before, and the only reason I didn't take it is that as per the rules, knowledge (local) includes laws and such for the region. That said, I'm all for another skill if you want to separate them, although I think we might should consider that a knowledge (law) would get synch bonuses from knowledge (local) and knowledge (religion), and possibly more. Alternatively, a profession skill might be appropriate for encompassing what you are explaining. --Msallen
- Nah, I'm down with Law. It might take some sort of examination and certification process. Probably a roll. -gm
- Which, profession or knowledge? Its not clear at all --Msallen
- If we go with the Tome profession tweak, making 1 rank in Profession(Law) perhaps a "Law Student", and 2 ranks a "Lawyer" would probably be more than adequate, and could have the effect of allowing knowledge skills to be used for law-related questions (perhaps with a bonus at "Lawyer"), in lieu of being able to simply plop down some rolls and make money as a lawyer. I don't think Law will have enough use to justify spending points in as a sub-category of knowledge. -Slitherrr
- Which, profession or knowledge? Its not clear at all --Msallen
- Nah, I'm down with Law. It might take some sort of examination and certification process. Probably a roll. -gm
I'd like to flesh out the concept of Bog Iron a bit for the Wydmoor region. I was sort of enamoured with it when I was doing my Wydmoor Swamp research because, with its natural rust-resistence, it is almost as if it has magical properties even in the real world. One idea is just to make it equivalent to cold iron, which is the reason I bring it up here. Can we retcon that sword from the orc battle to be a Wydmoor-made, bog iron weapon? --Msallen
- A funny note, brought up by the Tome, is that D&D cold iron is silly--the reason cold iron is good against fey is because, at the time these things were made up, cold iron represented the high technology of the time. Since "regular" steel, the material of "regular" weapons, takes more technological prowess than cold iron, it doesn't make sense that cold iron is super-effective against fey and regular iron isn't. Anyway, that doesn't change anything in the Mainland, it was just a hilarious observation. -Slitherrr
- Yeah, cold iron is pretty funny when you read the history of the term. --Msallen
- FWiW, the primary use is of iron IMO is not in taking out fey, but in taking out demons and devils. Also, sure, I'm ok with making Bog Iron count as Cold Iron, and having the sword be Bog Iron for flavor. -gm
- The fey thing is really primarily a historical folklore reference from the real world. From wikipedia: "Cold iron" is sometimes asserted to repel, contain, or harm ghosts, fairies, witches, and/or other malevolent supernatural creatures. I didn't realize it was useful against Demons too until I checked out the monster records--the cold iron section in special materials only mentions fey. Also, it looks like cold iron is only in the DR of Demons, but Devils don't have any special vulnerabilities to cold iron. --Msallen
- *blink* Who are you talking to like I don't know that? I just meant players fight waaaaaay more demons than fey. -gm
- The fey thing is really primarily a historical folklore reference from the real world. From wikipedia: "Cold iron" is sometimes asserted to repel, contain, or harm ghosts, fairies, witches, and/or other malevolent supernatural creatures. I didn't realize it was useful against Demons too until I checked out the monster records--the cold iron section in special materials only mentions fey. Also, it looks like cold iron is only in the DR of Demons, but Devils don't have any special vulnerabilities to cold iron. --Msallen
- FWiW, the primary use is of iron IMO is not in taking out fey, but in taking out demons and devils. Also, sure, I'm ok with making Bog Iron count as Cold Iron, and having the sword be Bog Iron for flavor. -gm
- Yeah, cold iron is pretty funny when you read the history of the term. --Msallen
Skills
Do synergy bonuses stack? I was under the impression that they didn't. -Slitherrr 12:09, 11 November 2009 (EST)
A little research suggests they don't as of 3.5. Booo. -Slitherrr 12:10, 11 November 2009 (EST)
Actually, scratch that. It looks like it went from being a "synergy bonus" to an "unnamed bonus", so despite the vague wording of the synergy bit in the skill, it evidently does, indeed, stack. -Slitherrr 12:13, 11 November 2009 (EST)
I am pretty sure they stack based only on the few character optimization posts I've read. Those nerds would have seen a rules violation from a mile away. That said, I think they shouldn't. Syn bonuses are definitely unbalanced and heavily abusable in 3.5, especially around diplomacy. I wouldn't abuse them like I have except that I self-identify as a munchkin and I feel no obligation to violate my lifestyle. -Msallen 13:03, 11 November 2009 (EST)
- Diplomacy is impossible to unbalance because you can't talk your way out of a knife to the back. -gm
- I *wish* I had that diplomancer in my group. He'd be dead in two sessions. I do not miss players like this, though I'm somewhat eager to encounter one again one day. Good luck out rules lawyering me in 3.5 : the Diplomancer concept has a fatal flaw that the player seems to willfully ignore. Namely : "Changing others’ attitudes with Diplomacy generally takes at least 1 full minute (10 consecutive full-round actions). In some situations, this time requirement may greatly increase." I suppose the counter would be to take a rushed one at -10, which I would patently disallow, because you can't do any meaningful diplomacy in six seconds. Since that would lead to some whinging and arguing, I'd give the "ok" and then move on to my next trick. After all, that's hardly the only fuckin' I could give. ". . . to influence the attitude of a nonplayer character, or wild empathy checks made to influence the attitude of </b>an animal or magical beast."
Notice that article? It's consistantly singular. That is, even with a hurried diplomacy action every round, you'd still only get to turn ONE NPCs reaction per round, not that of a whole group. And, the instant Mr Diplomancer convinces that one guy to oppose his fellows, I'll give you one guess as to who the rest of the opposition will concentrate fire on. -gm
- Yeah, and what Jones is saying is basically what is flavoring the Professional discussion from my point of view, and what makes him so tough to balance. His power outside of combat stems a lot from talky-talky, and that power is so easy to cancel out that it's really hard to judge exactly how powerful it makes him. -Slitherrr
Whats crappy about the sync bonuses is how quickly they push other characters out of the dipl game. In general, a player that wants to be top-notch at a specific skill for player reasons can be with minimal investment. However, if you don't go ape-shit with diplomacy getting all the support skills, its really hard to have much impact compared to a diplomancer type. --Msallen 13:16, 14 January 2010 (EST)
You know, Germain really doesn't spend much time lying anymore--now that hes increasingly important, he just doesn't have to front as much. I'm considering focusing on Dipl, SM, and GI, and putting bluff/intimidate on the back burner. At +10, they are pretty strong, and I'm sure I'll be able to buy them up a little more (and benefit from the Dragoman feature). I might just leave him at "capable" liar and buy up some more knowledge skills. --Msallen
Did you know in ancient times, big pilgrim cities would often be flush with "travelers guides" of various degrees of quality? You could have picked a few up, at nominal gold cost, to justify enough for a couple points in dadtim and/or alexandria's city. -gm
- Yeah, I was considering it. Points are tight trying to qualify for Dragoman at 7 and bring my wheelhouse skills up to max. I already dropped bluff from my wheelhouse to be able to get some extra points in knowledge skills :| I'll see what I can do. --Msallen
- My usual playbook fort that situation is to sacrifice my max skill to get the glass I'm looking for, then double down the next level to get back up to max.
- I did that last level :| I doubled down on SM to bring it to max since I want it to be my main bag, and then I only put a point in my other max skills. I do think another knowledge: local is a good idea. --Msallen
- My usual playbook fort that situation is to sacrifice my max skill to get the glass I'm looking for, then double down the next level to get back up to max.
Skill-wise, my next step with Germain is to start working his knowledge skills up to 5 ranks. At that point, they grant their synergy bonuses and give me +9 on my rolls. Since this is a guaranteed aid-another success, its sort of a cool feature. It'll mean Germ can get some rarer info (20 avg), and can always contribute to the work of a real expert. --Msallen
- Only 16 ranks to go! -Slitherrr
Another level, another drama. Dragoman lets me pick up Skill Mastery (+2 and take-10 under stress) on Sense Motive, which I would like to be one of Germ's major strengths as an investigator/statesman. However, Bard is just a shitload more utility. It's probably going to have to be bard :| --Msallen
- Well, as long as the party stays x+1 on you, at least there's the bonus XP. -gm
- I don't really picture Germain plucking a lute. -Slitherrr
- Perform (Oration). I'm not sure what sort of details I need to work out on this with Jones, but we've been talking about public speech as a bard focus for Germain. The ability to give a powerful speech makes sense for a lot of bard abilities (although maybe countersong is a little hinky) --Msallen
- Yeah, between his professional build, and the Dragonman and Bard pick up, Germain needs to pick up a few Knowledge (Law) skills so he can become Wydmoor's preeminent lawyer. It's the gateway to politics, and it always has been! But, yeah, Oratory is a legitimate skill - instead of singing or playing an instrument to inspire courage, you go all Saint Crispin's Day. I actually think it works amazingly well with the class and the slightly more martial tone of it in this campaign. -gm
- Actually, I've thought about that before, and the only reason I didn't take it is that as per the rules, knowledge (local) includes laws and such for the region. That said, I'm all for another skill if you want to separate them, although I think we might should consider that a knowledge (law) would get synch bonuses from knowledge (local) and knowledge (religion), and possibly more. Alternatively, a profession skill might be appropriate for encompassing what you are explaining. --Msallen
- Nah, I'm down with Law. It might take some sort of examination and certification process. Probably a roll. -gm
- Which, profession or knowledge? Its not clear at all --Msallen
- If we go with the Tome profession tweak, making 1 rank in Profession(Law) perhaps a "Law Student", and 2 ranks a "Lawyer" would probably be more than adequate, and could have the effect of allowing knowledge skills to be used for law-related questions (perhaps with a bonus at "Lawyer"), in lieu of being able to simply plop down some rolls and make money as a lawyer. I don't think Law will have enough use to justify spending points in as a sub-category of knowledge. -Slitherrr
- Which, profession or knowledge? Its not clear at all --Msallen
- Nah, I'm down with Law. It might take some sort of examination and certification process. Probably a roll. -gm
- Actually, I've thought about that before, and the only reason I didn't take it is that as per the rules, knowledge (local) includes laws and such for the region. That said, I'm all for another skill if you want to separate them, although I think we might should consider that a knowledge (law) would get synch bonuses from knowledge (local) and knowledge (religion), and possibly more. Alternatively, a profession skill might be appropriate for encompassing what you are explaining. --Msallen
- Yeah, between his professional build, and the Dragonman and Bard pick up, Germain needs to pick up a few Knowledge (Law) skills so he can become Wydmoor's preeminent lawyer. It's the gateway to politics, and it always has been! But, yeah, Oratory is a legitimate skill - instead of singing or playing an instrument to inspire courage, you go all Saint Crispin's Day. I actually think it works amazingly well with the class and the slightly more martial tone of it in this campaign. -gm
- Perform (Oration). I'm not sure what sort of details I need to work out on this with Jones, but we've been talking about public speech as a bard focus for Germain. The ability to give a powerful speech makes sense for a lot of bard abilities (although maybe countersong is a little hinky) --Msallen
Leveling and Respec
Ranger! Crazy talk! -Slitherrr
- FAVORED ENEMY: HUMAN! --192.147.58.6 13:11, 14 January 2010 (EST)
Potential changes from Fighter -> Professional respec:
- HP -2
- Fort Save -1
- Remove: Evasion
- Add: Insightful Defense
- Skills: 6 pts (can't raise any skills past level 3 max)
- 1 listen
- 1 spot
- 2 search
- 2 intimidate
No changes occur to:
- Feats: lost fighter bonus, gained prof bonus--since I took skill feats with 2 human starting feats and
- BaB: Prof level 2->3 gets a +1 BaB
Done! In the process I realized I took 8 skills instead of 9 for my newest ranger level! --Msallen
I guess there is a part of me that is looking at the Field Marshall and seriously considering it. --Msallen
- Then go capture one. Kib has a reason to be able to access Sentinal and Field Marshall classes. I'm not sure Germain does. -gm
The 1-level splashes in all these classes with strong saves have really rocketed them to crazy levels. You're at 26 total without the ring, and without spending any feats on saves, and without even having great Con or Dex! I pity the fool who tries to mind control your ass. -Slitherrr
- No shit, although the only time anyone tried to mind control me they succeeded. Once I get my sense motive up to ridiculous levels, I'll be moving on to saves with Will as the top priority, though, so I'll be smooth sailing again! --Msallen
- Silly boy, why would anyone mind control the least effective member of the party? No, you kill the talker first because he brings you no upside, and then mind control the guy with the monster scythe. Maybe reverse the order of those two, in a perfect world. -gm
- Talker has proven pretty hard to kill--Germain can't fight, but hes routinely high AC with good HP and saves. But yeah, too bad there are no scribable or wandable bard spells. --Msallen
- http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/breakEnchantment.htm
- In general, the goal with Germain taking Bard was to expand his abilities as a utility knife in combat. With the right wands and scrolls he can become an off-healer, a spellbreaker, crowd control, and other utility effects. He can survive in battle without too much help, and its not like his actions are better spent on attacks. --Msallen
- I think the ideal for Kib would be for him to find a cudgel with a "Break Enchantment" effect. Also, hilarious. One great thing about the petomancer, though, is that while they might not singly be amazing in combat, they're pretty good put together, AND that's twice as many people to have to mind control!
- In general, the goal with Germain taking Bard was to expand his abilities as a utility knife in combat. With the right wands and scrolls he can become an off-healer, a spellbreaker, crowd control, and other utility effects. He can survive in battle without too much help, and its not like his actions are better spent on attacks. --Msallen
Don't forget, if you start cranking Bard levels, that you're going to also have to keep your Ranger levels up to not get XP penalties. -Slitherrr
- Yeah, I looked into that. I don't think I will go past bard 2 anyways, maybe not even that far. There isn't a lot of incentive to do more than splash bard if you aren't going all bard. The only reason to go to 2 is level 1 spells. --Msallen
Gear
An unintended consequence of our changes is that my goofy earring, which gives skill bonuses or eagle's splendor, gets a little cooler at mid levels --Msallen
- Hm?
- Also, what'd you think of that new feat?
- Er. Because the clicky will give me an AC bonus starting at level 6. I like the feat in concept, although I'm not sure I'm capable of evaluating how useful it is. It might be too situational, but I don't have a good grip on that sort of thing. --Msallen
- Well, I didn't actually create the feat, I lifted it. I imagine the goal is to give an Aid Another to someone ELSE who is also going to AoO? Also, don't forget, your Eagle's Splendor only lasts 3 minutes and shuts off your +1 for 24 hours. ;)
- Um. Eagle's Splendor is Charisma, not Intelligence. It'll be a + to Will Saves if you take the feat, but that's it.-Slitherrr
- Yeah, sorry, I assume what was meant was Fox's Cunning. LE's Charisma Cloak clickies to Eagle's Splendor. -gm
- Ah, I think Jones meant for it to be Fox's Cunning (int bonus) based on how he explained it: get +1 on int skills all the time, or get +2 for a short period. That said, if I was wrong, sweet! I'll take a charisma buff any day! --Msallen
- Um. Eagle's Splendor is Charisma, not Intelligence. It'll be a + to Will Saves if you take the feat, but that's it.-Slitherrr
- Well, I didn't actually create the feat, I lifted it. I imagine the goal is to give an Aid Another to someone ELSE who is also going to AoO? Also, don't forget, your Eagle's Splendor only lasts 3 minutes and shuts off your +1 for 24 hours. ;)
- Er. Because the clicky will give me an AC bonus starting at level 6. I like the feat in concept, although I'm not sure I'm capable of evaluating how useful it is. It might be too situational, but I don't have a good grip on that sort of thing. --Msallen
Does the arrow-magnet quality of germ's buckler still work if he is wielding it with a 2-handed weapon like a bow? Ie. if I am denied the shield's AC bonus, am I also denied the ability? --Msallen
- Excellent question. No. If it is stowed in your backpack, it does not magnet. You actually CAN use a buckler with a two handed weapon, though. -gm
- I guess this could go 2 ways, but I'm happy with this way since it serves my purpose (like germain gives a shit about another -1 to hit). On first reading of the buckler rules, it looked to me like you lost the AC bonus because you are using your off hand to wield the 2-handed weapon. --Msallen
- This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a -1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don’t get the buckler’s AC bonus for the rest of the round.
- Oh shit, we are both total retards. --Msallen
- You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it.
Leadership
Leadership at Professional 5? You get it for free in one more level! -66.207.91.56
- Yeah, I know its kind of stupid. Might still change my mind, but here was my reasoning:
- * It will be a while before I take Prof 6 since there are some skill boosters from Dragoman that I am more interested in
- * I'm most interested in leading an organization, so Improved Leadership is actually pretty cool since it boosts my henchmen
- * I like the RP element of stacking feats around socials skills and leadership, even if it isn't optimal.
I still don't get why you'd grab leadership at lvl 5. Cohort always maxes out at Level-2. I always thought the +2 Improved Leadership was kind of a booby prize. -gm
- Yeah, I don't know if I will take it in the end. It depends on a lot of things:
- Have I had an in-game justification to get a second knowledge (local) skill up to 6. If I can, I'll be picking up Dragoman at level 7. I'll probably take it to level 2--the +3 bonus to all charisma skills is hot for me, and I'd really like to get +2 and take-10 with Sense Motive. That'll mean I won't get leadership until level 9 if I don't take it as a feat.
- Do I have an in-game justification to take leadership at 6? I might not even feel like the Germ has the contacts or resources to take leadership, and I'd like to have an NPC in mind for cohort potential. In all honesty, I'm probably also more interested in the followers than the cohorts, since I'm not even sure I'll take a combat-based cohort. For followers, the +2 bonus does have a noticeable effect.
- What do you have in mind for the leadership feat? Its a weird feat with very little structure that is highly dependent on the GM, campaign, and player. So I'll just be talking to you a lot about it as I get closer to 6. If it it has a strong RP component that'll cause NPC organizations to put me in charge of lots of people, then I'll take it earlier. If I have to have my own base of operations, funding, and political capital to make full use of it, then I'll take it later. If it means I'm more likely to start building more permanent relationships with a higher level of loyalty with the NPCs I interact with, I'll take it earlier. Etc. etc.
- Hence the question mark. Its still pretty unresolved whether and how I'm going to use the feat. --Msallen
- Well, you've got, what, 2 more levels before it's an issue? I'll backburner it for now - 2010/1401 is going to be a VERY chaotic year for Wydmoor, so where Germ goes and how he develops is up in the air: all possibilities are on the table. That's all I can say about that right now. If you wanted a knowledge local, you could, perhaps, pick a city or region where one of the OTHER characters has some Knowledge Local skill points and learn from them. I mean, I'm a big fan of assuming the players are doing stuff like conversating and such during all the Walking Time characters do, so I've never bought fully into the "well, I didn't do anything in game to justify the expense." With months of skipped over downtime, there's plenty of time to practice skills and wotnot on the road. (Though, for something like your ranger level, the RP component becomes a lot more important.) -gm
- Aight. I guess I was under the impression that you had to spend some time in an area to build up knowledge (local), but chatting, libraries, and reading newspapers is enough? I'll probably aim to build up my knowledge of ubrekt city, since I already have some points in it and its probably easy to get news/info about since its such an important city. Or I'll see what the other party members have. Still doesn't really resolve this issue since it'll just cause my to postpone prof 6 for 3 levels for sure. --Msallen
- Well, you've got, what, 2 more levels before it's an issue? I'll backburner it for now - 2010/1401 is going to be a VERY chaotic year for Wydmoor, so where Germ goes and how he develops is up in the air: all possibilities are on the table. That's all I can say about that right now. If you wanted a knowledge local, you could, perhaps, pick a city or region where one of the OTHER characters has some Knowledge Local skill points and learn from them. I mean, I'm a big fan of assuming the players are doing stuff like conversating and such during all the Walking Time characters do, so I've never bought fully into the "well, I didn't do anything in game to justify the expense." With months of skipped over downtime, there's plenty of time to practice skills and wotnot on the road. (Though, for something like your ranger level, the RP component becomes a lot more important.) -gm
Languages
Looks like I am short a language, since ubrekti and regional language are both granted to starting characters. What makes sense from a game perspective. Germ has been around Fresia/Flannery and Ubrekti City most of his life, so it seems like I could easily make a case for any of them? --Msallen
- I thought you already had Flannary and Fresia? The regional language for Ubrekt is actually Hakni. -gm
- Wouldn't I start with Ubrekti and Fresia? I was under the impression from the contentious language talk page that you start with common + regional + int bonus? --Msallen
- Well, either Ubrekti and Fresia, or Ubrekti and Flanneri. What I think that Matt is referring to, though, is that if you spent a lot of time in Ubrekti City, it'd make sense if you knew Hakni, since that's the actual regional language, there. -Slitherrr
- Also, for being the more worldly and less beefy incarnation of Kib, you sure haven't spent many points in Speak Language. -Slitherrr
- The only other language we've had to deal with was Lizardmanlander! When will I ever use that again? Probably pick up Odessan soon since you people are invading my new town. --Msallen
- Yeah, I have no idea why Odessan is so widely spoken in the MFC group, since most of them are Gildenhomers. WEIRD. -Slitherrr
- The only other language we've had to deal with was Lizardmanlander! When will I ever use that again? Probably pick up Odessan soon since you people are invading my new town. --Msallen
- Wouldn't I start with Ubrekti and Fresia? I was under the impression from the contentious language talk page that you start with common + regional + int bonus? --Msallen
Edrell-Mail
- (Rcvd at some point during the combats of last game you were too much of a girl to witness, both in and out of game.)
- CITY BESIEGED. YOUR RETURN UNLIKELY FOR AWHILE. NEWS IS OUT ABOUT MAYOR. WAR ROOM IN CHAOS. HAVE MAYOR'S RING? URGENT. (Rc'vd 1 Pd/Rnwl)
- Woo! Also, what's that about line-breaks in your edit summary? -slith
- CITY BESIEGED. YOUR RETURN UNLIKELY FOR AWHILE. NEWS IS OUT ABOUT MAYOR. WAR ROOM IN CHAOS. HAVE MAYOR'S RING? URGENT. (Rc'vd 1 Pd/Rnwl)
