Talk:Camel Archer

Should this class be retooled for firearms instead of bows? --Msallen

I like that idea. Also, to kind of differentiate from the Elk-Rider (I keep accidentally typing Elf-Rider), the "Improved" and "Expert" abilities could reduce firearm loading time (even allowing the firearm to be loaded at all while riding is an improvement), rather than increasing to-hit and damage. -Slitherrr

No. Bedouins use bows. Firearms are for the urbanized and civilized Petaran.

Just a note: 10 + Camel Archer Level + Ranks in Animal Handling gets very high very quickly. If a Ranger got this class at level 5 (the minimum), he would have a 10 + 1 + 8 = 19 save DC, increasing by two every level if he keeps Animal Handling capped and keeps going in Camel Archer. Normal horses only have a will save of +2, so that's an 85% chance that they completely disable the mount for 1d4+1 rounds, with no mitigating circumstances from the horse's rider unless he has fear-canceling spells, or some form of Exceptional Mount that increases will save (Even in the latter case, it's not likely that the will save will increase by more than one or two points, making the chance a "mere" 75%-ish, rather than 85%). In two levels, it's a 100% chance, again, with no mitigating circumstances barring spells/exceptional mount. This is VERY powerful against horse-riding classes. -Slitherrr

Yes, I'm aware. Some slight nerfing (1/2 of animal handling ranks?) might be in order, but the Camel Archer is a stone-cold check to horse cavalry. Ever seen how real horses react to real camels? --absalom 11:49, 11 May 2010 (EDT)

I can dig that for sure, and it's pretty reasonable that it would freak the shit out of regular cavalry, although maybe there could be some incremental failure in the system (fail by five or less, horse freezes, fail by six or more, horse runs for 1d4+1, that sort of thing). The math on 1/2 animal handling ranks is fairly reasonable, although it still gets ridiculous when you're a very high level. My main problem with it is that the progressions of the horse cavalry don't advance the resistance quickly enough to combat the camel rider's fear. Going from 10 + CA Level + Ranks in Anim Handle to 10 + 1/2 Ranks in Anim Handle is probably a good start; although that does weaken the initial impression at the lower levels a bit (14 save DC, meaning 12 is the number to make for an SRD horse), it still advances in a way that outpaces the save, meaning he'll be scaring a lot of horses at level 9, and could simply wade through regiments of cavalry by level 15-20 (which may be reasonably epic for that sort of situation). -Slitherrr

Yeah, I think scaring the bejezus out of things at lvls 15-20 is probably a feature, not a bug. And, DC 14 for the first level of a class only seems about 5 or 10% too low, so that's alright. Also, wouldn't it start at 15? Maximum ranks at 5th level is like 8, half being 4, so 10 + 4 + 1 = 15. You're stronger in math, so obviously I'm missing something, or you're assuming our camel archer did not max out. --absalom 16:48, 11 May 2010 (EDT)

My assumption was that it wasn't adding camel archer level, just 1/2 anim handle ranks. If camel archer level is added, the progression gets much faster--completely irresistible for normal horses by level 10 (15 + 6*1.5 = 24). What do you think of the "fail by 1-5: horse freezes, fail by 6+: horse bolts" idea? Slitherrr

I don't actually hate this idea, but that's more data that has to be managed on the GM end, so I'm leery for that reason. What other skills/abilities use that mechanic? DD, maybe? --absalom 10:25, 12 May 2010 (EDT)

I think the better place to start, perhaps, might be with the save progression of the exceptional mount, which might could be boosted some. Made to mimic the PC progression, and ending with W+2, F+1, R+1. Only a small boost, but probably enough because I think that even given the prestige vs. prestige matchup, the balance of saves should break substantially in favor of the camel. 1d4+1 is not critically debilitating, at any rate, and a successful save doesn't even leave the horse ill-affected at all. (Although I think maybe it should be shaken) --absalom 16:48, 11 May 2010 (EDT)

1d4+1 can be a very long time--our battle in the last session was only five rounds, after all. I do agree with your reasoning, though.

Just to weigh in briefly here, I agree with slith on this point. If the horse's save grew with the PC's level, I'd be more ok with it, but as is the ability becomes completely irresistable regardless of the targets level is too rough. I'd base it on level alone and leave out the handle animal ranks altogether, which I think is the real killer. That said, I know how GM feels on the issue, and Slith should too. FYI slith: GM hates horses, and loves killing them ;) --Msallen

Hm, I'm not opposed to dropping the animal handling ranks: it's just a matter of coming up with a scheme that will be virtually irresistible for standard cavalry but breaking maybe only succeededing 60% of the time with Exceptional Mounts and such. But, 1d4+1 might be a long time for a skirmish, sure, but not for a set-piece engagement and is actually kind of short for a spell-like effect. The 1st level Cause Fear spell lasts 1d4, after all, so that much seems well in line with existing similar effects. --absalom 10:25, 12 May 2010 (EDT)

With just 10+level DC, it has a 45% chance of affecting a normal horse at level 1, and a 90% chance at level 10. On a battlefield, even 45% is devastating and 90% is downright insane. I personally think special mounts should be relatively hard to target with this ability--I don't like the idea of an ability that disables them 60% of the time. --Msallen

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, perhaps. First thing, of course, is that all the prestige classes only get FIVE levels, not ten, so there is no going past a +5 to the Fear DC, as it is based on Camel Archer level, not character level. Second, I think in a Prestige Class vs. Prestige Class matchup, the "spoiler" class gets the benefit of the break, rather than it being 50/50. That is, the most distinctive feature of the Camel Archer is that he spooks horses. So, while the Cavalier's horse should have much BETTER chances of saving than a run-of-the-mill cavalryman's horse, things should favor the camel, even if not overwhelmingly so. (Going back to my 60/40 thumbnail) -gm

Well, 90% at level 10 against normal mounts doesn't bother me TOO much--any level 14 (minimum for this guy) character has good reason to be pretty epic. That there are no restrictions on number of horses affected, and that it's basically "Line of Sight", are probably what make it worse. Maybe a range restriction (along with the no animal handling ranks) would solve most of these problems? It could even be incremental--start at 10', bump up to 15' or 20' or so. The horses have to get close enough for the smell and sight to bother them, anyway. I concede that 1d4+1 isn't too long, though, especially with the comparison to Cause Fear. Since the horsemen can always dismount, it's not like this COMPLETELY disables them (even though it does take away their preferred method of combat, which is very bad for any class that specializes in it).-Slitherrr

Ah, excellent point. Since I believe the nature of a horses fear of camels comes from smell, it was never intended to be Line of Sight, but probably something like 20' radius. That was always my intent, I just was very unclear. Excellent point, and making something explicit in the rules will go a ways toward balance. Might even be worth having it be something like 5' per class level, or 5'+5'/class level? -gm

Heh, I do like the image of a camel archer getting "stinkier" as he gets more experience. 5' + 5'/class level may be reasonable--30' is a nice big radius, but not "zomg crazy" so--a horse archer can still plink at him through it. And yeah, I dunno where I started thinking there were ten levels in this class (MSAllen?). +5 to the roll isn't bad at all. -Slitherrr

Tenpence has definitely been a target. I wanted to take Great Trip for my level 6, but I think I might have to take Mounted Combat just to keep my horsie alive. -Slitherrr

Well, as Terry Jones says : "Forget Chivalry - Shoot the horses!"

If you love your horse and want him treated right, you should buy him a nice horse-sized coffin and travel with it. In high-school, naming a horse was a sure sign that it was about to die! --Msallen

Well, worked at Agincourt and Crecy. -gm

tl;dr: Normal cavalrymen should probably be righteously fucked when faced with a camel archer, but I don't know if other prestige classes should be simply reduced to whimpering sobs without any good way to at least mitigate the effect. Considering the comparison with the Elk-Rider, which is basically the same with "causes fear in horses" replaced by "can move full speed through trees", it doesn't even seem that there's a real comparison. -Slitherrr

I'm pretty sure Elk-Rider gets spells and this guy does not, which is not really something you can fairly ignore when comparing relative class balance. Also, Elk-Riders get the ability to have their Exceptional Mount and Animal Companion be one and the same, with overlapping bonuses. That's REALLY something you can't ignore when comparing balance. --absalom 16:48, 11 May 2010 (EDT)

Forgot about the spells, so you're right, they probably come out even here. -Slitherrr