Difference between revisions of "Talk:Field Marshall (Pathfinder)"

Revision as of 21:22, 6 November 2015

abs and I were kicking around a rework for this, to get around the "I never remember who is in my fucking aura" problem. Rough draft is below, discussion goes below that -slitherrr (talk)

Inclusion in the list of "inspirations" shouldn't be taken as a desire for inclusion, only as a starting point for ideas--they're not my pets and I'm not particularly attached to them, only to the idea that the field marshall can contribute in a meaningful and unique way to party success. -slitherrr (talk)

Keeping comments within the draft in Talk templates to separate them visually, but I won't bother outside of the draft, because that's work. -slitherrr (talk)

Draft below, in-line comments with talk template to keep things organized

DRAFT

Odessa is the preeminent Human kingdom on the mainland, despite having no large scale or professional army to speak for most of its history. Instead, when war comes, it relies on the heart of its people, raised to a one to believe in Odessa as a nation. While there is no shortage of storied generals giving direction from the back lines, it is those paragons of the Odessan spirit, the Field Marshalls, that lead the vanguard. Through their example, the soldiers under their command are inspired to go beyond themselves, giving their all for the army's purpose.

Role: The Field Marshall is made to be on the front line. While she may not be the most formidable individual combatant on the field, her strength of will inspires the best out of those she leads, and anyone who finds themselves facing an army led by a Field Marshall's charge will ignore her influence at their peril.

Prerequisites: BaB: +6, Leadership Feat, Diplomacy: 4 Ranks, Intimidate: 4 Ranks, Knowledge (Geography): 2 ranks, Knowledge (Nobility): 2 Ranks, Knowledge (History): 2 Ranks

Hit Dice: d8

Skill Points: 4 + Int modifier

Class Skills: Acrobatics, Climb, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Knowledge (Nobility), Knowledge (History), Knowledge (Geography), Linguistics, Perception, Ride, Sense Motive, Survival, Swim

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The field marshall is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with light armor, medium armor, and all shields (except tower shields).

Lead by Example (ex): The field marshall inspires by doing. Beginning at first level, the field marshall may spend an hour of practice as part of her morning routine to choose two inspirations from the list below, plus another every two levels (three at third, four at fifth). The field marshall may never have more inspirations available than that allotment, but may switch out any inspiration for another in a later practice period. These inspirations can be used a number of times per day equal to the field marshall's level, plus half her Charisma modifier. Unless otherwise specified, triggering an inspiration is an immediate action, gives a competence bonus, and affects any ally that can see the field marshall for 1d4 rounds. When an enemy is the subject of the triggering action (either by being the source of an effect, or its target), it cannot be of a CR any lower than two less than the highest CR of any enemy currently active in the engagement, and if the enemy's attack is the inspiration trigger, that attack must not be compelled by any of the field marshall's allies. Finally, if the triggering effect is applied to multiple allies at the same time that it is applied to the field marshall, any bonuses from the inspiration do not apply to that effect (in other words, the inspiration effect does not apply until after the triggering effect is resolved).

Comment

It's a flavorful mechanic, I like it. Lots of work to do.

--gm

Comment

I'm not sure why the first level gives two of these a day. Since it grows only by +1, it seems odd to get two of these a day. I mean, the argument is probably that they're all sort of crappy and trait sized instead of feat sized, but being able to get a menu of options daily is certainly heavier than a trait. I'd rather the the menu of crappy expand. Also, being able to do this in an hour is mechanically like having "whatever power I absolutely need prepared" about 80% of the time.

--gm

Comment

The progression follows more of a spellcaster progression--start out with a couple, then go up. The training period is the same--it's worded to be like the hour of prep that every single spellcasting class uses (that is, it shouldn't be doable more than once per day). I could make that more explicit. The spellcaster thing breaks down when it gets to uses/day, though, so if you've got a better way to model this, I'd love to hear it. The main problem I have is making it so there are actually enough interesting options to make this class something anyone would care about--the battle herald makes its choices permanent, but it has ten levels to pile those on with other things to make the class worthwhile, and ten levels plus however many levels of bard to pile on rounds/day of uses, neither of which is a luxury of the field marshall. I could make it, "one or two usable in a given day out of the X that you've chosen as your repertoire", but each inspiration would have to be more powerful to make that helpful. I mean, the trait comparison is apt, power-wise, but the thing about traits is that they're barely a game mechanic to begin with, and they certainly don't come from level advancement. These should probably be balanced more along the lines of judgments or the cavalry teamwork feat thing that I don't remember offhand.

--slitherrr (talk)

Comment

Also, "inspiration" doesn't sound like a competence modifier, it sounds like a morale modifier. Morale is probably marginally crappier than competence strictly speaking, but not by much and if that's fluff getting in crunch, I can still sleep at night.

--gm

Comment

This is talked about below, so I'll keep the response down here, just putting this here to note that.

--slitherrr (talk)

Comment

Also. It's too much reading? Are some of these moving parts really necessary. It's a trigger which is fine but already a "busier" power than normal, but that trigger has a checklist of conditions - not all of them simple - plus at least one roll? That's going to take a lot of action economy for basically marginal bonuses. There shouldn't be a pre-flight checklist long enough to warrant a "finally."

--gm

Comment

The reactive nature makes it complicated, but it's likely that I'm trying to preemptively balance away some things that don't really need to be balanced away. I definitely wouldn't mind getting rid of the roll completely. However, to be fair to the pre-flight checklist, the majority of it is a set of rules that apply to attempts to trigger all of the inspirations that aren't really any more complicated than the set of rules that need to be memorized for, say, barbarian rage--the inspirations themselves are supposed to boil down to essentially, "react to one specific thing". In play, I'm pretty sure it will be strictly easier than keeping track of a bonus aura, because there are only a couple to keep in mind at a time, they're all from specific actions with subjects and have durations (so they don't come and go based on the field marshall's position), and the bonuses are all X to Y (which can actually have FGII effects created for them and applied, which doesn't work with "+2 to literally everything").

--slitherrr (talk)

So, like, I see the triggers as a good thing now and I like them a lot more since I only had time to mega skim them before. My real reaction is against: it cannot be of a CR any lower than two less than the highest CR of any enemy currently active in the engagement, and if the enemy's attack is the inspiration trigger, that attack must not be compelled by any of the field marshall's allies.

That's a nightmare. What purpose does this serve and how can we address that purpose in a way that doesn't give me a headache? This plus having a non-save die drop is my biggest question mark.

• Break the Line: This inspiration can be triggered whenever the field marshall makes a charge against an enemy. The field marshall provides a +2 bonus to attack and damage to any ally that makes a charge until the beginning of the Field Marshall's next turn.

• Press the attack: This inspiration can be triggered whenever the field marshall lands a blow on the enemy. Additional attacks against that enemy are made with a +1 bonus for the duration of the inspiration.

• Hold Fast: This inspiration can be triggered whenever the field marshall takes a quarter or more of her hitpoints in a single attack from an enemy. All allies in range gain DR/2 for the duration of the inspiration.

• Resolve: This inspiration can be triggered whenever the field marshall makes a successful Will save, or successfully resists a fear effect that would require a will save (even if the field marshall did not need to make a save due to unroutable, below). Allies in range get a +2 bonus to Will saves for the duration of the inspiration. This inspiration cannot be used with the reactive usage of heroic rally, below.

• Abeyance: This inspiration can be triggered whenever the field marshall successfully resists a curse effect. Allies in range have any curse that is currently in effect suspended for the duration of the inspiration.

• Sundering Light: This inspiration can be triggered whenever the field marshall successfully destroys a qualifying enemy, and is in range of an ally with searing light memorized. Any single ally who meets the criterion may cast searing light as an immediate action, with a +2 bonus to attack/damage. A qualifying enemy is any with the undead template, plus the usual criteria for triggering an inspiration with an enemy target.

• Tactical Defense: This inspiration can be triggered whenever the field marshall successfully defends against a combat maneuver. Allies in range get a +4 to CMD for the duration of the inspiration.

Guiding Light (ex): Starting at first level, the field marshall may cast light as a cantrip.

Heroic Rally (ex): Starting at second level, the field marshall may cast remove fear as a caster equal to twice her field marshall class level, and may do so a number of times per day equal to your field marshall class level plus her Charisma modifier. At field marshall level 4, this becomes a move action. "Impersonal" damage sources (such as traps, falling damage, drowning, or something similar) cannot trigger this effect, nor can nonlethal damage.

Beacon of Valor (ex): Starting at third level, the field marshall may spend a usage of her heroic rally feature to cast continual flame. The field marshall may only have one such continual flame in effect at a time. Any ally who rests for a full day bathed in this light gains a new will save against any continuing emotion effect, even if they would not otherwise receive one. If they would get such a will save, it is instead made with a +2 morale bonus.

Unroutable (ex): Starting at fifth level, the field marshall becomes immune to fear from any source. In addition, whenever she would have been subject to a fear effect were it not for this ability, she may use heroic rally as an immediate action. The targets of this rally must have also been targeted by the same fear effect that triggered the action.

DRAFT

Longer discussion here

So, what I like is the capper ability ("unroutable"), since it's pretty unique and powerful, but also really niche (how many things actually rely on fear effects at high levels, except dragons?). It could be toned down, though--maybe removing the immediate action, or making it so that it just bumps fear effects a step down (panicked becomes frightened becomes shaken), or both. I need to sit down and brainstorm more triggers and effects for inspirations, but that's just a matter of trawling through other classes and coming up with appropriate eye-for-an-eye things to fit their buffs. -slitherrr (talk)

Several types of undead radiate it, most halfway worthwhile outsiders can do it as a special, as can some aberrations and anything with 5 caster levels. That's off the top of my head, not comprehensive. I don't hate the power though. Also: the spell that removes fear entirely is anywhere between a level 5 and level 6 spell, so that's worth noting when balancing. -gm

Fair enough. Do you know which spell that is? remove fear gets rid of fear for, effectively, forever (10 minutes), for up to six people in 30' (1 +1/four CL), and it's a level 1 spell, but its prophylactic effect isn't super-powerful (+4 to save rather than immunity). Having more high-level stuff to compare to would let me get a better feel for if this needs changing, or if other stuff needs changing to compensate it. -slitherrr (talk)

The competence bonus nature of the inspirations comes directly from the battle herald, and is made to synergize-but-not-stack with bard bonuses, so anything the field marshall gives bonuses to will have to take bard abilities into count. In fact, the battle herald was a huge inspiration for this class, and should be looked at heavily by anyone who has feedback here. The idea is that the battle herald is a bard in the vanguard, while the field marshall is the vanguard. -slitherrr (talk)

I mean, the explanation for competence is essentially a mechanical one, yeah? - gm

Completely mechanical. Like it says here, it's basically so the bard and the field marshall aren't mad stacking. I'm actually fairly sure that making these morale bonuses will make them better, mechanically, because the specific things they're adding to are competence bonuses when added to by bards. I can double-check that. If that's not something you're worried about, making them morale for flavor is not something I'm opposed to.-slitherrr (talk)

Another thing I'm iffy on is how to balance times/day of the field marshall's workhorse. The battle herald solves the problem my making it act like bard song (and bard is a class prereq), but that doesn't work for the field marshall, who can't guarantee any bard levels. Similarly, doing anything like the barbarian's rounds/day or whatever means that the field marshall leaves the class with a pretty pitiful number of rounds for actually doing what they're good at (since they don't get twenty levels to pile on uses/day). The current mechanic tries to compromise that, but I'm not a huge fan of variable-length durations and am willing to accept other ideas (there is a bit of flavor around the "fortunes of battle" or whatever that does sweeten that pill a bit for me, though). -slitherrr (talk)

Why does the duration have to be variable? I mean, especially if the variable is 1-4? -gm

It doesn't. The impulse behind it is that "two rounds" seems a pittance, but "four rounds" sounds like forever. I could focus it down to two and try to make it so the inspirations all have a good "punch" that is worth only lasting two rounds. My ideal is something that has a very short time period in which it can turn the tide of the battle, but that goes away if it's not taken advantage of, forcing the field marshall to fluidly react to the field and coordinate those reactions with the rest of the team. -slitherrr (talk)

Sundering light is the least in-flavor (it's more "paragon of righteous light" rather than "paragon of guidance"), but I do like the image of it, so I'm keeping it around to inspire me to come up with something that's a bit more within the conceit. -slitherrr (talk)

Good luck. -gm

Thanks. And for what its worth, this is also the inspiration with the longest pre-flight checklist, so it's no skin off our nose if it goes away completely. -slitherrr (talk)

So the main (tripartite) tension here is, "Have applicability in enough situations that you'd actually get to use the ability", "have each effect have enough power to actually change something (a la barbarian 'rage' or any caster spell)", and "be specific enough that it's not a god power". I think your responses have helped me consolidate my ideal, so I'll put that down here as an overarching goal: the field marshall should have a stock of inspirations that she can essentially load up for the day's battle (a strategic element), and then she should spend a bunch of her time in the actual battle maneuvering herself into the position where the trigger would go off (a tactical element), and that consideration should actually have to be weighed against other important tactical things. This would indicate a) a "memorization" mechanic with a "spellbook", b) low duration and/or uses/day, and c) relatively punchy actual bonuses. If that set of goals sounds like a worthwhile attainment, I'll do another once-over with them in mind. -slitherrr (talk)

I'm going to lay out the "pre-flight checklist" here to break down the goals of each piece, so it'll be easier to figure out if we care, or if there's a less-fiddly way of accomplishing said goal:

1. "triggering an inspiration is an immediate action"
   1. aka, reactive, and depending on some other action that happens (reason for reactivity is discussed above) -slitherrr (talk)
2. "gives a competence bonus"
   1. discussed above -slitherrr (talk)
3. "and affects any ally that can see the field marshall"
   1. "i don't want to draw a circle". This is equivalent to bard/battle herald mechanics, minus "hear", since sound is more of a "thing" for the bard. -slitherrr (talk)
4. "for 1d4 rounds"
   1. discussed above -slitherrr (talk)
5. "When an enemy is the subject of the triggering action (either by being the source of an effect, or its target), it cannot be of a CR any lower than two less than the highest CR of any enemy currently active in the engagement"
   1. "mooks aren't worth engaging". This is the most fiddly thing ever and I would love an alternative. -slitherrr (talk)
6. "and if the enemy's attack is the inspiration trigger, that attack must not be compelled by any of the field marshall's allies"
   1. "don't cheese a trigger by abusing the mechanics", and using dominate to trigger an inspiration is decidedly off-flavor -slitherrr (talk)
7. "Finally, if the triggering effect is applied to multiple allies at the same time that it is applied to the field marshall, any bonuses from the inspiration do not apply to that effect (in other words, the inspiration effect does not apply until after the triggering effect is resolved)."
   1. "I don't want to care about the specific timing of bonus application". This is mostly to keep from wondering if, say, a +2 will save bonus will apply to the mass fear effect that triggers it (in general, any multi-target trigger that happens to include the field marshall). -slitherrr (talk)
8. "(some actual trigger)"
   1. This usually boils down to, "the field marshall does something", or, "something does something to the field marshall". Sundering light has an additional caveat in the form of "must be vs undead", but I don't think anything else I've come up with so far has a similar caveat. -slitherrr (talk)