Talk:Field Marshall (Pathfinder)

abs and I were kicking around a rework for this, to get around the "I never remember who is in my fucking aura" problem. Rough draft is below, discussion goes below that -slitherrr (talk)

Inclusion in the list of "inspirations" shouldn't be taken as a desire for inclusion, only as a starting point for ideas--they're not my pets and I'm not particularly attached to them, only to the idea that the field marshall can contribute in a meaningful and unique way to party success. -slitherrr (talk)

Keeping comments within the draft in Talk templates to separate them visually, but I won't bother outside of the draft, because that's work. -slitherrr (talk)

Draft below, in-line comments with talk template to keep things organized

DRAFT

Odessa is the preeminent Human kingdom on the mainland, despite having no large scale or professional army to speak for most of its history. Instead, when war comes, it relies on the heart of its people, raised to a one to believe in Odessa as a nation. While there is no shortage of storied generals giving direction from the back lines, it is those paragons of the Odessan spirit, the Field Marshalls, that lead the vanguard. Through their example, the soldiers under their command are inspired to go beyond themselves, giving their all for the army's purpose.

Role: The Field Marshall is made to be on the front line. While she may not be the most formidable individual combatant on the field, her strength of will inspires the best out of those she leads, and anyone who finds themselves facing an army led by a Field Marshall's charge will ignore her influence at their peril.

Prerequisites: BaB: +6, Leadership Feat, Diplomacy: 4 Ranks, Intimidate: 4 Ranks, Knowledge (Geography): 2 ranks, Knowledge (Nobility): 2 Ranks, Knowledge (History): 2 Ranks

Hit Dice: d10

Skill Points: 4 + Int modifier

Class Skills: Acrobatics, Climb, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Knowledge (Nobility), Knowledge (History), Knowledge (Geography), Linguistics, Perception, Ride, Sense Motive, Survival, Swim

× Level	BaB	Fort	Ref	Will	Ability
1	+1	+2	+0	+2	lead by example (1 target, 2 inspirations), guiding light
2	+2	+3	+0	+3	heroic rally (standard action)
3	+3	+3	+1	+3	lead by example (2 targets, 3 inspirations), beacon of valor
4	+4	+4	+1	+4	heroic rally (move action)
5	+5	+4	+2	+4	unroutable, lead by example (3 targets, 4 inspirations)

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The field marshall is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with light armor, medium armor, and all shields (except tower shields).

Lead by Example (ex): The field marshall inspires by doing. Beginning at first level, the field marshall has access two inspirations from the list below, plus one every two levels. The field marshall may spend an hour at the end of a rest period to change which inspirations are available (this may only be done once per day). These inspirations can be used once per day plus her Charisma bonus, plus one more for every two field marshall levels beyond 1st, and can target one ally who can see the field marshall, plus one more for every second level after 1st. While under the affect of the inspiration, the affected allies get a +2 morale bonus to will saves for a number of rounds equal to the field marshall's level. At any time before the inspiration expires, they may dismiss it as an immediate action to gain an effect, or to add the field marshall's inspiration bonus to a certain type of roll (such a use can be declared after the die is rolled, but before the results are revealed). The type of roll this bonus can be added to depends on the inspiration. Unless otherwise specified, this bonus is the field marshall's Charisma modifier, and is a morale bonus. If multiple allies are targeted by an ability that triggers an inspiration, resolve the inspiration after the triggering effect.

Comment

Example comment.

--slitherrr (talk) 21:38, 21 November 2015 (EST)

It's a great example. I think there's probably a lot more possibilities for little trigger powers here. Have to think on it. I also think a +2 will bonus might be too high, or at least too high for the entry level of this class. I think maybe +1 growing to a +2 might be better, especially since the +1 turning into a +2 came with the original class.

• Alexandria's Light: This inspiration can be triggered whenever the field marshall successfully destroys an undead enemy. Any undead who are illuminated by the field marshall's guiding light or beacon of valor effects suffer a -2 morale penalty to AC and saves for the duration of the inspiration. Undead who are not mindless may attempt a Will save to negate this effect; the DC for this save is 10 + field marshall level + Charisma bonus.

• Defy Corruption: This inspiration can be triggered whenever the field marshall successfully saves against poison. Targeted allies may dismiss the inspiration to gain the inspiration bonus to a save against poison.

• Defy Curse: This inspiration can be triggered whenever the field marshall successfully resists a curse effect. Targeted allies act as if under the affects of an abeyance spell for the duration of the inspiration.

• Grit: This inspiration can be triggered whenever the field marshall witnesses an ally suffer enough damage to take them to zero or fewer hitpoints. Targeted allies may dismiss the inspiration to gain the effects of the die hard feat for one round.
  • Dismiss to auto-stabilize seems neater and easier, if marginally crappier.

• Hold Fast: This inspiration can be triggered whenever the field marshall takes a quarter or more of her hitpoints in a single attack from an enemy. Targeted allies may dismiss the inspiration to gain DR inspiration bonus/&emdash; against attacks in that round.
  • Quartering? We're not quartering! This one needs work. Dam = HD? Dam = 2xHD? Who cares if it triggers more often, though I'm also leery of potentially giving out like DR 5 so easily. This might be better as a flat DR, perhaps tied to Field Marshall level? 1/2/3 or perhaps FM level if 1/2/3 is deemed to crappy, although I don't think it is. Let's not kid ourselves, this is the one that's going to happen the most and so needs to be the most rigorously tested.

• Press the attack: This inspiration can be triggered whenever the field marshall lands a blow on the enemy. Targeted allies may dismiss the inspiration to gain the inspiration bonus on attack and damage for one attack against that enemy.
  • This one triggers all the time. Attack and damage. ATTACK and damage. Attack AND damage? Attack AND DAMAGE? This is off the charts good. At the very least, the to hit and to damage should be forked. Maybe let the inspired each get to choose which bonus.

• Resolve: This inspiration can be triggered whenever the field marshall makes a successful Will save. Targeted allies may dismiss the inspiration to immediately retry a Will save attempt (this attempt does not get the inspiration bonus).
  • This one is a good, boilerplate power to balance by. Might need to narrow down what sort of saves get the bonus. A Curse we picked up a week ago? I don't think that's the intent, but I think possible at present?

• Reveille: This inspiration can be triggered whenever the field marshall sees an enemy. Any targeted ally may dismiss the inspiration's effect to gain an immediate save against an ongoing exhaustion, fatigue, or sleep effect (sleeping allies attempt this automatically). In addition, any ally visible to the field marshall who is under the effects of non-magical sleep instantly awakens.
  • Wait, what? This is meant to be like quick out of bed, but I'm not sure what all the parts are doing. I think probably makes more sense to be a bonus = chr mod on the perception roll to awaken instead of just auto-waken.

• Sound the Charge: This inspiration can be triggered whenever the field marshall makes a charge against an enemy. Targeted allies who make a charge may dismiss the inspiration's effect gain the inspiration bonus to attack and damage for that attack, and to increase the total possible movement of the charge by 5' per point of inspiration bonus.
  • I think this is a good place to allow both to hit and to damage bonus. I don't think the movement bonus is necessary.

• Tactical Insight: This inspiration can be triggered whenever the field marshall successfully defends against a combat maneuver. Targeted allies may dismiss the inspiration to gain the inspiration bonus to CMD against a single combat maneuver.
  • Maybe "against THAT combat maneuver?" So the bull rush attempt helps against other bull rushes but not trips.

• The Opponent is There: This inspiration can be triggered whenever the field marshall successfully hits an enemy under concealment. Targeted allies may dismiss the inspiration to ignore that enemy's concealment for a round. This ability still does not allow an enemy under total concealment to be targeted with effects that require line of sight, nor does it have any effect on cover.
  • Not bad. Ignoring concealment is pretty huge, though. Maybe get to make two concealment checks?

Guiding Light (sp): Starting at first level, the field marshall may cast light as a cantrip, using her field marshall level as the caster level.

Heroic Rally (ex): Starting at second level, the field marshall may cast remove fear as a caster equal to twice her field marshall class level, and may do so a number of times per day equal to your field marshall class level plus her Charisma modifier. At field marshall level 4, this becomes a move action.

Beacon of Valor (sp): Starting at third level, the field marshall may spend a usage of her heroic rally feature to cast continual flame. The field marshall may only have one such continual flame in effect at a time. Any ally who rests for a full day bathed in this light gains a new will save against any continuing emotion or poison effect, even if they would not otherwise receive one. This save is made with a +2 morale bonus.

Unroutable (ex): Starting at fifth level, the field marshall always gets a save to nullify fear effects, even when she otherwise wouldn't get one. Even if she fails the save, she can continue making attempts at the beginning of her following turns against the same DC, until the effect expires or she makes the save. In addition, whenever she successfully saves against a fear effect, she may use her heroic rally ability as an immediate action.

DRAFT

Longer discussion here

Ok, so bit of a revamp. Kept the "select x out of the library" mechanic, but standardized the length of the effect. It's now a passive + to will saves, dismissable for a larger + to something that depends on what it's reacting to, insight-style. I got rid of the CR bullshit, made it a morale bonus, and added a few more potential inspirations. I'd love to see like a million of those, and then prune it down to a manageable list, but it's doing alright so far (the Battle Herald was a big help, there). Targeting is now no longer everyone--just a few lucky recipients. Each of these is individually still less powerful than the equivalent Battle Herald thing (especially with the targeting change), but the insight-style triggering, slightly higher bonus (at least until Battle Herald 10) and increased flexibility should put them on par. Unroutable gets a small tweak to be "you just get to keep saving", which is much less powerful, but still good. -slitherrr (talk) 21:30, 21 November 2015 (EST)

Also bumped the dice to d10 to match his loss of AC buff and natural tendency to want to be in the middle of things. -slitherrr (talk)

And another change after brief chitchat with abs--no half CH bonus, allow a will save for the debuff. Mindless undead still don't get the save, but honestly if mindless undead are a problem at this level, something is wrong. Also added one more inspiration. -slitherrr (talk) 18:08, 27 November 2015 (EST)

Older stuff

So, what I like is the capper ability ("unroutable"), since it's pretty unique and powerful, but also really niche (how many things actually rely on fear effects at high levels, except dragons?). It could be toned down, though--maybe removing the immediate action, or making it so that it just bumps fear effects a step down (panicked becomes frightened becomes shaken), or both. I need to sit down and brainstorm more triggers and effects for inspirations, but that's just a matter of trawling through other classes and coming up with appropriate eye-for-an-eye things to fit their buffs. -slitherrr (talk)

Several types of undead radiate it, most halfway worthwhile outsiders can do it as a special, as can some aberrations and anything with 5 caster levels. That's off the top of my head, not comprehensive. I don't hate the power though. Also: the spell that removes fear entirely is anywhere between a level 5 and level 6 spell, so that's worth noting when balancing. -gm

Fair enough. Do you know which spell that is? remove fear gets rid of fear for, effectively, forever (10 minutes), for up to six people in 30' (1 +1/four CL), and it's a level 1 spell, but its prophylactic effect isn't super-powerful (+4 to save rather than immunity). Having more high-level stuff to compare to would let me get a better feel for if this needs changing, or if other stuff needs changing to compensate it. -slitherrr (talk)

The competence bonus nature of the inspirations comes directly from the battle herald, and is made to synergize-but-not-stack with bard bonuses, so anything the field marshall gives bonuses to will have to take bard abilities into count. In fact, the battle herald was a huge inspiration for this class, and should be looked at heavily by anyone who has feedback here. The idea is that the battle herald is a bard in the vanguard, while the field marshall is the vanguard. -slitherrr (talk)

I mean, the explanation for competence is essentially a mechanical one, yeah? - gm

Completely mechanical. Like it says here, it's basically so the bard and the field marshall aren't mad stacking. I'm actually fairly sure that making these morale bonuses will make them better, mechanically, because the specific things they're adding to are competence bonuses when added to by bards. I can double-check that. If that's not something you're worried about, making them morale for flavor is not something I'm opposed to.-slitherrr (talk)

Another thing I'm iffy on is how to balance times/day of the field marshall's workhorse. The battle herald solves the problem my making it act like bard song (and bard is a class prereq), but that doesn't work for the field marshall, who can't guarantee any bard levels. Similarly, doing anything like the barbarian's rounds/day or whatever means that the field marshall leaves the class with a pretty pitiful number of rounds for actually doing what they're good at (since they don't get twenty levels to pile on uses/day). The current mechanic tries to compromise that, but I'm not a huge fan of variable-length durations and am willing to accept other ideas (there is a bit of flavor around the "fortunes of battle" or whatever that does sweeten that pill a bit for me, though). -slitherrr (talk)

Why does the duration have to be variable? I mean, especially if the variable is 1-4? -gm

It doesn't. The impulse behind it is that "two rounds" seems a pittance, but "four rounds" sounds like forever. I could focus it down to two and try to make it so the inspirations all have a good "punch" that is worth only lasting two rounds. My ideal is something that has a very short time period in which it can turn the tide of the battle, but that goes away if it's not taken advantage of, forcing the field marshall to fluidly react to the field and coordinate those reactions with the rest of the team. -slitherrr (talk)

Sundering light is the least in-flavor (it's more "paragon of righteous light" rather than "paragon of guidance"), but I do like the image of it, so I'm keeping it around to inspire me to come up with something that's a bit more within the conceit. -slitherrr (talk)

Good luck. -gm

Thanks. And for what its worth, this is also the inspiration with the longest pre-flight checklist, so it's no skin off our nose if it goes away completely. -slitherrr (talk)

So the main (tripartite) tension here is, "Have applicability in enough situations that you'd actually get to use the ability", "have each effect have enough power to actually change something (a la barbarian 'rage' or any caster spell)", and "be specific enough that it's not a god power". I think your responses have helped me consolidate my ideal, so I'll put that down here as an overarching goal: the field marshall should have a stock of inspirations that she can essentially load up for the day's battle (a strategic element), and then she should spend a bunch of her time in the actual battle maneuvering herself into the position where the trigger would go off (a tactical element), and that consideration should actually have to be weighed against other important tactical things. This would indicate a) a "memorization" mechanic with a "spellbook", b) low duration and/or uses/day, and c) relatively punchy actual bonuses. If that set of goals sounds like a worthwhile attainment, I'll do another once-over with them in mind. -slitherrr (talk)

I'm going to lay out the "pre-flight checklist" here to break down the goals of each piece, so it'll be easier to figure out if we care, or if there's a less-fiddly way of accomplishing said goal:

1. "triggering an inspiration is an immediate action"
   1. aka, reactive, and depending on some other action that happens (reason for reactivity is discussed above) -slitherrr (talk)
2. "gives a competence bonus"
   1. discussed above -slitherrr (talk)
3. "and affects any ally that can see the field marshall"
   1. "i don't want to draw a circle". This is equivalent to bard/battle herald mechanics, minus "hear", since sound is more of a "thing" for the bard. -slitherrr (talk)
4. "for 1d4 rounds"
   1. discussed above -slitherrr (talk)
5. "When an enemy is the subject of the triggering action (either by being the source of an effect, or its target), it cannot be of a CR any lower than two less than the highest CR of any enemy currently active in the engagement"
   1. "mooks aren't worth engaging". This is the most fiddly thing ever and I would love an alternative. -slitherrr (talk)
6. "and if the enemy's attack is the inspiration trigger, that attack must not be compelled by any of the field marshall's allies"
   1. "don't cheese a trigger by abusing the mechanics", and using dominate to trigger an inspiration is decidedly off-flavor -slitherrr (talk)
7. "Finally, if the triggering effect is applied to multiple allies at the same time that it is applied to the field marshall, any bonuses from the inspiration do not apply to that effect (in other words, the inspiration effect does not apply until after the triggering effect is resolved)."
   1. "I don't want to care about the specific timing of bonus application". This is mostly to keep from wondering if, say, a +2 will save bonus will apply to the mass fear effect that triggers it (in general, any multi-target trigger that happens to include the field marshall). -slitherrr (talk)
8. "(some actual trigger)"
   1. This usually boils down to, "the field marshall does something", or, "something does something to the field marshall". Sundering light has an additional caveat in the form of "must be vs undead", but I don't think anything else I've come up with so far has a similar caveat. -slitherrr (talk)