Difference between revisions of "Talk:Flame Disciple"

Revision as of 19:08, 27 October 2010

I've not been playing for a particularly long time, so I have no idea how well (or poorly) balanced this is. Specifically, I'm not sure if the minor elemental storm is actually useful or if it's just cool sounding. I've also thought about spell-like abilities like the following that could be used in place of the ones listed or possibly in the 2nd and 4th level slots:

Wildfire: all creatures (enemies?) currently on fire explode, dealing some nominal damage to themselves and catching enemies within 10' on fire (chance to save by reflex).

Living bomb: small damage per round, larger AoE on death/expiration of the DoT/dispel.

Combustion(?): Causes a small explosion under the caster's feet, dealing some small amount of damage and knocking everyone within 5' backwards 10' (used to disengage from melee enemies), possibly a chance to knock the opponent prone?

Engulfing flames: Some sort of stacking effect where each fire damage by the caster causes the target to be more susceptible to fire for N rounds.

...

If more balance is needed, I think it would be appropriate for non-fire based offensive spells to count as one level higher than they are listed for purposes of spells known / per day.

Another option I've considered would be to flesh out all of the spells so far and provide them as a supplemental spell list that the caster could take as necessary.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Be gentle.

TooMuchPete 17:27, 21 June 2010 (EDT)

I'm sure Matt or Slitherrr will chime in on the numbers and rulesy stuff, they're good with that. I like the idea, overall, and think we can do some more interesting stuff with it. First off, as far as becoming half elemental, we can do that. To whit: <a href="http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Templates.pdf">Templates</a>. I'm not sure about the half-elemental in there, but other ones abound, might even have one in a dragon somewhere. Essentally you'd become an Fire Outsider instead of a Humanoid and some other fire related bonuses. I'll put some thought in and see what other kind of suggestions pop up. I think, probably, some of these might be underpowered or impractical (2 minute activation time! That's 20 rounds. The ENTIRE of last sundays game was like 15), and a couple need to be scaled back or gradated or even degradated. I like the idea of taking extra damage from cold, but I don't know that it needs to scale that much. 50% extra at third and double at 5th or something, since working in halves is kind of a mechanical normalcy.

Also: If it's going to have one good save, it's will. It's a good start, should be fun to work on -gm

Ditto on will save, but the elemental swarm ability is pulled almost verbatim from the SRD, so I think its point is to be cast outside of battle. I also agree with the 1/3/5 resist/vulnerability step, for the same reasons, although numbers will take tweaking. Something like 10/20/immune-x1/x1.5/x2 would probably work, although vulnerability in the SRD is only a +50%, so inspecting those numbers might be worthwhile. Perhaps +1d4/+1d8/vulnerability (+50%)? We'll have to look into some cold-damage spells and see what numbers they do to figure those out. Talking in IRC, Pete and I both think that 1d4 is probably too much self-damage per round for self-immolate. Obviously the damage can't be resistible, or it might as well not be there, but having a cost is important, too. It might be best to just make the ability a pure toggle--that would make the self-damage less scary, but allow it to still be the fairly large (for a sorc's hp) 1d4/round amount. -Slitherrr

Excellent thought. Let me bring a DM's eye to this - the less die the better. I would suggest something more along the lines of sacrificing X HP in order to generate some factor of Xd4 in damage, with a cap influenced by level. It makes the math very easy, and scales with level, which I think is an important aspect of prestige classes. I almost always include at least one scaling ability per package.

I think for GENERAL energy resistance, 1/3/5 is the way to go, but for a discrete damage type - especially coupled with a vulnerability - I think 5/10/15 or even 5/10/20 is appropriate. 20 isn't IMMUNE, but you could still probably play at least one game of ping pong while standing in a wall of fire.

This is hard to balance. Those are pretty small numbers when you start talking about the sorts of damage fire can do, ESPECIALLY if coupled with vulnerability. I say that, if the resistance numbers are this "small" (and it's pretty small, since fire spells really start racking up the damage at higher levels, and it's not like this resist can stack with Resist Energy casts), we should consider also really reducing the cold vulnerability, or removing it altogether. After all, elementals aren't vulnerable to opposite-aligned elemental spells, the vulnerability was just to balance the fairly powerful (on a PC) immunity, and possibly other abilities.

Yeah, balance tweaking is in order here, but I don't think something like 5xDisciple Level in Flame DR is bad. 25 is quite a lot of resistance. The spells it won't soak up most of are things like delayed blast, which you don't need to be shrugging off, regardless. For any of the spells involved in the self-center mechanic, it should be more than enough - especially if that DR is doubled for that specific purpose.

Oh, and elementals most certainly DO have vulnerabilities to opposite alignment. It's right there under "Special Qualities." Of course, it's not scaling, it's just Some creatures have vulnerability to a certain kind of energy effect (typically either cold or fire). Such a creature takes half again as much (+50%) damage as normal from the effect, regardless of whether a saving throw is allowed, or if the save is a success or failure. . I do like this idea, but perhaps as part of the level 5 "turning into a half elemental" package. -gm

Holy fuck, how did I miss the vulnerability every single time I looked at that page, and the qualities section on same? Damn, man. But yeah, the vulnerability comes along with immunity, so 25 DR with 2.0x puts him at a severe disadvantage by comparison. I dunno, needz tweakz, but that's probably a secondary concern right now anyway.-Slitherrr

It feels somewhat weird to go from 1d8 to +50%, as it's not difficult to imagine a situation in which +8 would be more than 50% of the incoming damage. +25% might be awkward to do at level 3, and x2.0 might be a little high, but I think the x2 could be balanced a bit by adding another ability or somehow improving the survivability a bit in some other way. --TooMuchPete 11:15, 22 June 2010 (EDT)

I'd prefer not to add extra dice in the singular, so for something like cold vulnerability, the more likely way to go is a penalty to save coupled with some straight % of damage increase.

Also, the extent of transformation into an Elemental type would matter, since there are attributes that apply.

From the SRD:

1. Darkvision out to 60 feet.
2. Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, and stunning.
3. Not subject to critical hits or flanking.
4. Unlike most other living creatures, an elemental does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an elemental is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don’t work on an elemental. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection, to restore it to life.
5. Proficient with natural weapons only, unless generally humanoid in form, in which case proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
6. Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) that it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Elementals not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Elementals are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
7. Elementals do not eat, sleep, or breathe.

5 and 6 obviously don't apply, and 3 and 4 probably don't, since crits/flanking is based on not having a discernible front or anatomy, and the usual trope for 4 is for members of transformation PrCs to still count as their base type for purposes of resurrection (not that it matters in THIS particular campaign), but the rest are fair game. The dragon disciple even gains stats, but I think that the spells and extraordinary abilities offset that particular bit for this guy. -Slitherrr

Yeah. I think a full on elemental type would me a little much. There are two or three different half-elemental templates floating around out there, to say nothing of a character race set (the Gensai, et al) based around half elementalism. The 5th level of the prestige class could be the acquisition of the template, which I think is preferable to a wholesale race substitution. But, either way, I think Outsider (Fire) getting added is a given considering the description.

Right. PrCs of this sort generally add a creature type, rather than substituting one completely (so Humanoid/Fire Elemental, or Humanoid/Outsider(Fire), which is a difference in degree), generally meaning that effects that target one or the other will affect the character (with some exceptions made, like being able to be resurrected and whatnot). -Slitherrr

Most of the additional ideas above seem impractical or not terribly useful, but I'd like to find a way to work Wildfire in. The two big problems I see with it now are: a) It would need to use a spell slot. Maybe level 1 or 2? Otherwise I could imagine it being a bit over-powered. b) there aren't a ton of spells that actually set the enemy on fire, so there's not a ton of usefulness to it. The only solution I could see to that is that fire damage dealt could have a chance to set the target on fire (maybe coupled with self-immolate?). That might be more useful than the Minor Elemental Swarm, which I added just because sounds cool. --TooMuchPete 11:15, 22 June 2010 (EDT)

Well, if it uses a spell slot, you might be better off just adding a fire-only spell slot to the class at the levels where he gains caster level, and then fleshing Wildfire out into a spell. Extraordinary/supernatural abilities tend to be limited by the x/day thing, or by repercussions (i.e. self-damage), or not limited at all.-Slitherrr

s/Wildfire/Self-immolate. Damn your WoW-centric vocabulary! -Slitherrr

Alright, I like the idea of where you're going with this, but I think that the stuff gained by the class needs to not be a spell like ability, but rather things that augment your spells. Consider, perhaps, the ability to cast any fire spell as a 10' radius (it could grow with character levels) spell centered on yourself. Either a set number of times per day, perhaps based on an attribute, or as a metamagic feat with sometihng like +1 spell level. You'd damage yourself, getting the immolation idea in, but the elemental resistance would eat up a lot of that. If the math works out to be too punishing, we could have the innate DR double when using the ability (so 5/10/20 or 30 becomes 10/20/40 or 60). So, for example, you could cast Burning Hands as a radius effect spell on yourself and you'd take whatever damage your fire resistance did not eat up, or a Searing Ray, or a Fireball or whatever.

Better, even, if the DR scales something like 5 per level, maxing out at 25 at level five? Likewise, perhaps, the character level would restrict the spell level for the ability: first level could only cast first level spells that way, through 5th level. Anything higher than that, really, even with 40 or 60 DR you might kill yourself.

As for Elemental Swarm - I think, especially considering you're going for the Pseudodragon, you would be better of developing it as a spell that you can pick up at the appropriate level. Something like what you are looking for, in spell form, probably exists in the wild

Thoughts? -gm

For the record, I see that there are two options as far as the immolation thing goes - the metamagic feat or extraordinary ability that turns spells into radius effects or a scaling X nonpreventable damage for Yd4 effect. I prefer the former, because it has built in scaling (by picking the spell) and mimics in mechanics what I think you are going for (centering firestorms on yourself.)

As for the firestorm idea, another option would be to include a metamagic feat that allows you to learn any elemntal tag spell as a fire version of that spell. So, cone of cold becomes cone of fire, etc. This way, there are actually a couple of options for firestorms at various levels, allowing you to get one or both. Ice Storm, which also impairs movement, and Acid Raid (or some such) which just does a megafuck damage. I think this is preferable, again, because it keeps the primary engine of your damage as the spell slot.

I think we might be combing two different ideas here that I had not intended to be related. The tl;dr on self-immolation (as I've proposed it) is a damage buff to fire-spells that costs HP. The small, caster-centered AOE is more of a result of the way the ability was conceived... which is basically that the caster becomes engulfed in raging flames, doing damage to himself and surroundings, but making his fire spells more powerful. Wildfire is more of a way to make fire contagious. When the ability is used, enemies who are on fire have a chance to set nearby enemies on fire, too. TooMuchPete 11:07, 23 June 2010 (EDT)

I updated the article to reflect something of a consensus on the way to do fire resist (FR 5x Disciple Level), although I'm still not sure the best way to handle cold damage. In Elementals, Immunity to fire yields +50% cold damage, so anything that big seems like it would be bad news. One suggestion from [[slitherrr] was +1 to each cold damage die rolled, which is significant at high levels without being absurd. That would make sense to take effect on the 5th level. If something was needed in the interim, +1 per 2 dice could be done at level 3 or something.

I moved caster level advancement from levels 1,3,5 to levels 2,4 to provide a bit of room to do more fun stuff.

I also removed Minor Elemental Swarm -- the idea is neat, but it seems impractical and like it would be rarely used for it to be a 5th level ability.

Some ideas so far for filling in other abilities (etc):

• Metamagic feats don't cost anything for fire-based spells
• Possibly the option between two different styles of new metamagic feat:
  • Fire spells all get a knockback/knockdown, or
  • Fire spells apply a damage over time effect
• A caster-centered explosion (presumably to deal with being swarmed)
• The ability to learn druid/cleric/etc fire spells at some sort of level penalty

I'm open to suggestions for others, it seems (at least to me) like there's a bit of room to push more cool stuff in without making the class over-powered.

-TooMuchPete 17:07, 23 June 2010 (EDT)

Alright, this is what i've come up with. Saving throws are blanked, but I expect Will is strong, and Fort and Ref are weak. I'm willing to hear arguments to the contrary, naturally, but that's my initial inclination. d8 HD is clearly far too much, but considering the HP sacrificing mechanic and the severely reduced caster progression, d6 is very reasonable. I ditched the "becoming a half elemental" idea - sort of - instead migrating that ability to the familiar to give some kind of ability gain on the even (caster increase) levels. Increased the spell prereqs to bring in line with other specialist prestige classes. Persistent damage is something I try to avoid for sanity sake, but liked having a offensive defense ability and tried to compensate with a more potent single round of damage. Finally, added a mechanic that *might* be a tad to complicated (but I don't think so) in order to create a "fire storm" sort of mechanic that is still tied to spell slots rather than special abilities.

Input encouraged.

Description: In Flux

Prerequisites: the ability to cast four arcane spells with the fire descriptor, one of which must be at least 3rd-level or greater offensive Fire spell. 7 ranks of Spellcraft, 5 ranks of Knowledge(Arcana), and 3 ranks of Knowledge(The Planes). Must not have an elemental creature type (wholly or partially).

Hit Dice: d6

Skill Points: 2+INT

Class Skills: Spot, Listen, Concentration, Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (The Planes), Spellcraft

Fire Mastery - All spells with the fire descriptor cast do additional fire damage equal to caster's Flame Disciple level.

Fire Resistance - Flame Disciples develop flame resistance equal to 5x their Disciple level. This does not stack with fire resistance from other sources.

Inner Fire - The caster's soul furnace has reached such intensity that he or she may ignite flammable materials with nothing but a touch as a standard action. If the item is in someone's possession or equipped my someone, then they are entitled to a reflex save to avoid the effect. If the item is magical, it is entitled to a save to avoid the effect. In both cases, the save is DC 10 + Flame Disciple Level + Caster Attribute Mod.

Resistant Familiar - If the caster has a familiar, that familiar shares the caster's innate fire resistance if within 30 feet.

Soul Furnace (Sp) - For fire-based spells, the caster may sacrifice some of his own life-force to empower them. The caster may sacrifice up to one hit points per spell level as a free action when casting a spell, adding 1d4 fire damage for each hit point so sacrificed. This effect is limited to spell levels less than or equal to the disciple level, and may only be used on spells with the fire descriptor.

Elemental Familiar - If the caster has a familiar, that familiar gains the "Elemental (Fire)" template, Fire Immunity and Cold Vulnerability. Any natural attacks now deal +2 fire damage in addition to damage from any other sources. In addition, the familiar gains a fire breath weapon, once per day, with 15' range, dealing 1d4+1 points of damage for every point caster attribute bonus. The DC for this breath weapon is 15.

Nova Channel (Sp) - The caster's mastery over her inner fire has reached such levels that the caster may us it to act as a conduit directly to the Elemental Plane of Fire, sacrificing spell castings to fuel a pyrotechnic blast from within the caster's own body. As a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity, the Flame Disciple may sacrifice a spell to generate a 20' radius ball of fire, centered on (an affecting) herself. The damage dealt by this blast is equal to 1d4 + Ability Modifier for every level of the sacrificed spell. A reflex saving throw, DC equal to casting a comparable level fire spell cast by the Flame Disciple, is allowed for half damage. The caster make a fortitude save, with a bonus equal to her attribute modifier, to suffer half damage. The Flame Disciple may not sacrifice a spell of a higher spell level than she has flame disciple levels.

Lingering Flames (Metamagic) - The caster becomes so in tune with fire type spells that he or she gains the ability to increase the duration of instantaneous spells. If the caster takes a full round action to cast a fire spell, its duration may be changed from "instantaneous" to any number of rounds of the caster's choosing. For every round the spell is extended, the spell's effective level is increased by one. If Soul Furnace is used in conjunction with this ability, the increased damage must be paid for *each round* the caster wishes to have increased damage.

Example: A Burning Hands spell cast as a third level spell would burn from the casters fingertips for three rounds: The instantaneous duration, plus one round for each spell level. Any creature in the area of effect during the caster's turn, or entering into the area of effect on its own turn, takes the damage. (Much like Ice Storm of Fire Storm spells). Likewise, a fireball cast as a fourth level spell would do exist for the round of casting plus one round.

Just to note, here, vulnerability is huuuuge, especially with caster HP. Elementals get away with it because they have tons of d8 HD, and resist tons of other forms of damage, but the poor flame disciple is going to find himself completely down and out even on a successful reflex save and with a decent amount of cold resistance with a single cone of cold, or similar attack. I don't know if any of his other abilities really give him enough damage output to justify that sort of vulnerability, especially if he's losing immunity. -Slitherrr

I like the quality where there is fire everywhere with this guy. I kind of like the nova more than the burning blood ability, although the fact that the blood is a reaction that doesn't take an action probably makes it better. --146.127.253.12

Numbers

Whipped up an app to generate numbers. Here are damage numbers for all the cold spells in the SRD.

CLvl is caster level, min max and average are for that level, boost are the same but with vulnerability, avgbr## is avgboost with resist of that amount applied before vulnerability.

It's probably worth pointing out that the min level is based on Wizard caster level. Sorcs will be higher. I also didn't check whether any of them were domain spells that might occur at an earlier level. This also, I just remembered, doesn't include Divine spells--I can add them pretty easily, once I get back to the computer that has the script. -Slitherrr

Never mind, there are no cold-damage Divine spells. -Slitherrr

One cold-damage Druid spell (kept here to remember later): Chill Metal

Ray of Frost, min caster level 1, Cold Type, Ranged touch attack

CLvl| min| max|  avg|minboost|maxboost|avgboost|avgbr10|avgbr20|avgbr30
   1|   1|   3|  2.0|     1.5|     4.5|     3.0|    0.0|    0.0|    0.0

CLvl| min| max|  avg|minboost|maxboost|avgboost|avgbr10|avgbr20|avgbr30
   7|   8|  13| 10.0|    12.0|    19.5|    15.0|    0.0|    0.0|    0.0
   8|   9|  14| 11.0|    13.5|    21.0|    16.5|    1.5|    0.0|    0.0
   9|  10|  15| 12.0|    15.0|    22.5|    18.0|    3.0|    0.0|    0.0
  10|  11|  16| 13.0|    16.5|    24.0|    19.5|    4.5|    0.0|    0.0
  11|  12|  17| 14.0|    18.0|    25.5|    21.0|    6.0|    0.0|    0.0
  12|  13|  18| 15.0|    19.5|    27.0|    22.5|    7.5|    0.0|    0.0
  13|  14|  19| 16.0|    21.0|    28.5|    24.0|    9.0|    0.0|    0.0
  14|  15|  20| 17.0|    22.5|    30.0|    25.5|   10.5|    0.0|    0.0
  15|  16|  21| 18.0|    24.0|    31.5|    27.0|   12.0|    0.0|    0.0

CLvl| min| max|  avg|minboost|maxboost|avgboost|avgbr10|avgbr20|avgbr30
   7|   2|  12|  6.0|     3.0|    18.0|     9.0|    0.0|    0.0|    0.0

CLvl| min| max|  avg|minboost|maxboost|avgboost|avgbr10|avgbr20|avgbr30
   7|   8|  13| 10.0|    12.0|    19.5|    15.0|    0.0|    0.0|    0.0
   8|   9|  14| 11.0|    13.5|    21.0|    16.5|    1.5|    0.0|    0.0
   9|  10|  15| 12.0|    15.0|    22.5|    18.0|    3.0|    0.0|    0.0
  10|  11|  16| 13.0|    16.5|    24.0|    19.5|    4.5|    0.0|    0.0
  11|  12|  17| 14.0|    18.0|    25.5|    21.0|    6.0|    0.0|    0.0
  12|  13|  18| 15.0|    19.5|    27.0|    22.5|    7.5|    0.0|    0.0
  13|  14|  19| 16.0|    21.0|    28.5|    24.0|    9.0|    0.0|    0.0
  14|  15|  20| 17.0|    22.5|    30.0|    25.5|   10.5|    0.0|    0.0
  15|  16|  21| 18.0|    24.0|    31.5|    27.0|   12.0|    0.0|    0.0
  16|  17|  22| 19.0|    25.5|    33.0|    28.5|   13.5|    0.0|    0.0
  17|  18|  23| 20.0|    27.0|    34.5|    30.0|   15.0|    0.0|    0.0
  18|  19|  24| 21.0|    28.5|    36.0|    31.5|   16.5|    1.5|    0.0
  19|  20|  25| 22.0|    30.0|    37.5|    33.0|   18.0|    3.0|    0.0
  20|  21|  26| 23.0|    31.5|    39.0|    34.5|   19.5|    4.5|    0.0

CLvl| min| max|  avg|minboost|maxboost|avgboost|avgbr10|avgbr20|avgbr30
   9|   9|  54| 31.0|    13.5|    81.0|    46.5|   31.5|   16.5|    1.5
  10|  10|  60| 35.0|    15.0|    90.0|    52.5|   37.5|   22.5|    7.5
  11|  11|  66| 38.0|    16.5|    99.0|    57.0|   42.0|   27.0|   12.0
  12|  12|  72| 42.0|    18.0|   108.0|    63.0|   48.0|   33.0|   18.0
  13|  13|  78| 45.0|    19.5|   117.0|    67.5|   52.5|   37.5|   22.5
  14|  14|  84| 49.0|    21.0|   126.0|    73.5|   58.5|   43.5|   28.5
  15|  15|  90| 52.0|    22.5|   135.0|    78.0|   63.0|   48.0|   33.0

CLvl| min| max|  avg|minboost|maxboost|avgboost|avgbr10|avgbr20|avgbr30
  11|  11|  66| 38.0|    16.5|    99.0|    57.0|   42.0|   27.0|   12.0
  12|  12|  72| 42.0|    18.0|   108.0|    63.0|   48.0|   33.0|   18.0
  13|  13|  78| 45.0|    19.5|   117.0|    67.5|   52.5|   37.5|   22.5
  14|  14|  84| 49.0|    21.0|   126.0|    73.5|   58.5|   43.5|   28.5
  15|  15|  90| 52.0|    22.5|   135.0|    78.0|   63.0|   48.0|   33.0

CLvl| min| max|  avg|minboost|maxboost|avgboost|avgbr10|avgbr20|avgbr30
  15|  15|  90| 52.0|    22.5|   135.0|    78.0|   63.0|   48.0|   33.0
  16|  16|  96| 56.0|    24.0|   144.0|    84.0|   69.0|   54.0|   39.0
  17|  17| 102| 59.0|    25.5|   153.0|    88.5|   73.5|   58.5|   43.5
  18|  18| 108| 63.0|    27.0|   162.0|    94.5|   79.5|   64.5|   49.5
  19|  19| 114| 66.0|    28.5|   171.0|    99.0|   84.0|   69.0|   54.0
  20|  20| 120| 70.0|    30.0|   180.0|   105.0|   90.0|   75.0|   60.0
  21|  21| 126| 73.0|    31.5|   189.0|   109.5|   94.5|   79.5|   64.5
  22|  22| 132| 77.0|    33.0|   198.0|   115.5|  100.5|   85.5|   70.5
  23|  23| 138| 80.0|    34.5|   207.0|   120.0|  105.0|   90.0|   75.0
  24|  24| 144| 84.0|    36.0|   216.0|   126.0|  111.0|   96.0|   81.0
  25|  25| 150| 87.0|    37.5|   225.0|   130.5|  115.5|  100.5|   85.5

Am I reading this table right? I get the impression that vulnerability will increase the damage of cold based spells by between 80% and 150% on average depending on the spell. Double damage from spells does seem pretty rough. --146.127.253.44

Vulnerability adds 50% to damage after resists and so on. The more interesting statistics are the numbers themselves, and whether or not they are enough to, say, kill the vulnerable PC in a single hit with little/no chance of a save after the vulnerability boost. The big ones to worry about are Cone of Cold and Freezing Sphere (Polar Ray is also scary, but it's scary regardless of vulnerability status, and a ranged touch attack does no damage when avoided, compared to half damage on a reflex save, and in addition to DC being easier to add to than reflex). For both CoC and FS, at the min caster level, the boosted damage means there's a good chance of instant Flame Disciple death even on a successful Reflex save for half damage, unless the FD can keep Cold Resist 30 up (and even then, the average takes him down to ~66% of hp). Jonesy has already opted to ditch vulnerability, so it's an academic point. Once I'm home, I plan to do similar analysis for the damage buffs. I'm less positive what we can compare those to, but it won't hurt to have more data around. -Slitherrr