Difference between revisions of "Talk:Camel Archer"

Revision as of 17:02, 11 May 2010

Should this class be retooled for firearms instead of bows? --Msallen

I like that idea. Also, to kind of differentiate from the Elk-Rider (I keep accidentally typing Elf-Rider), the "Improved" and "Expert" abilities could reduce firearm loading time (even allowing the firearm to be loaded at all while riding is an improvement), rather than increasing to-hit and damage. -Slitherrr

No. Bedouins use bows. Firearms are for the urbanized and civilized Petaran.

Just a note: 10 + Camel Archer Level + Ranks in Animal Handling gets very high very quickly. If a Ranger got this class at level 5 (the minimum), he would have a 10 + 1 + 8 = 19 save DC, increasing by two every level if he keeps Animal Handling capped and keeps going in Camel Archer. Normal horses only have a will save of +2, so that's an 85% chance that they completely disable the mount for 1d4+1 rounds, with no mitigating circumstances from the horse's rider unless he has fear-canceling spells, or some form of Exceptional Mount that increases will save (Even in the latter case, it's not likely that the will save will increase by more than one or two points, making the chance a "mere" 75%-ish, rather than 85%). In two levels, it's a 100% chance, again, with no mitigating circumstances barring spells/exceptional mount. This is VERY powerful against horse-riding classes. -Slitherrr

Yes, I'm aware. Some slight nerfing (1/2 of animal handling ranks?) might be in order, but the Camel Archer is a stone-cold check to horse cavalry. Ever seen how real horses react to real camels? --absalom 11:49, 11 May 2010 (EDT)

I can dig that for sure, and it's pretty reasonable that it would freak the shit out of regular cavalry, although maybe there could be some incremental failure in the system (fail by five or less, horse freezes, fail by six or more, horse runs for 1d4+1, that sort of thing). The math on 1/2 animal handling ranks is fairly reasonable, although it still gets ridiculous when you're a very high level. My main problem with it is that the progressions of the horse cavalry don't advance the resistance quickly enough to combat the camel rider's fear. Going from 10 + CA Level + Ranks in Anim Handle to 10 + 1/2 Ranks in Anim Handle is probably a good start; although that does weaken the initial impression at the lower levels a bit (14 save DC, meaning 12 is the number to make for an SRD horse), it still advances in a way that outpaces the save, meaning he'll be scaring a lot of horses at level 9, and could simply wade through regiments of cavalry by level 15-20 (which may be reasonably epic for that sort of situation). -Slitherrr

Yeah, I think scaring the bejezus out of things at lvls 15-20 is probably a feature, not a bug. And, DC 14 for the first level of a class only seems about 5 or 10% too low, so that's alright. Also, wouldn't it start at 15? Maximum ranks at 5th level is like 8, half being 4, so 10 + 4 + 1 = 15. You're stronger in math, so obviously I'm missing something, or you're assuming our camel archer did not max out. --absalom 16:48, 11 May 2010 (EDT)

My assumption was that it wasn't adding camel archer level, just 1/2 anim handle ranks. If camel archer level is added, the progression gets much faster--completely irresistible for normal horses by level 10 (15 + 6*1.5 = 24). What do you think of the "fail by 1-5: horse freezes, fail by 6+: horse bolts" idea? Slitherrr

I think the better place to start, perhaps, might be with the save progression of the exceptional mount, which might could be boosted some. Made to mimic the PC progression, and ending with W+2, F+1, R+1. Only a small boost, but probably enough because I think that even given the prestige vs. prestige matchup, the balance of saves should break substantially in favor of the camel. 1d4+1 is not critically debilitating, at any rate, and a successful save doesn't even leave the horse ill-affected at all. (Although I think maybe it should be shaken) --absalom 16:48, 11 May 2010 (EDT)

1d4+1 can be a very long time--our battle in the last session was only five rounds, after all. I do agree with your reasoning, though.

tl;dr: Normal cavalrymen should probably be righteously fucked when faced with a camel archer, but I don't know if other prestige classes should be simply reduced to whimpering sobs without any good way to at least mitigate the effect. Considering the comparison with the Elk-Rider, which is basically the same with "causes fear in horses" replaced by "can move full speed through trees", it doesn't even seem that there's a real comparison. -Slitherrr

I'm pretty sure Elk-Rider gets spells and this guy does not, which is not really something you can fairly ignore when comparing relative class balance. Also, Elk-Riders get the ability to have their Exceptional Mount and Animal Companion be one and the same, with overlapping bonuses. That's REALLY something you can't ignore when comparing balance. --absalom 16:48, 11 May 2010 (EDT)

Forgot about the spells, so you're right, they probably come out even here. -Slitherrr